What's your Strategy?
https://forums.matrixgames.com:443/
ORIGINAL: Przemcio231
Is this Exp. Mode Playable???
ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
The problem is a simple on of design screw-up. Look at the size of the first Japanese Airstrike. It contains 325 of the less than 200 A/C that Kido Butai could launch in a single strike. (Check Pearl Harbor, check Midway, check anything you want---Japanese CV's launched approximately HALF of their airgroups in a "Strike" because that's all that could be prepared and spotted for launch at one time.). The numbers swamp the defending CAP and Flak. Then toss in the "every man an ace" pilot skills, and the Allies are generally hamburger. Just correcting this one factor would at least give the Allies a fighting chance.
All very true... but USN was much worse than that in 1942... [;)]
Leo "Apollo11"
Excellent point Mike, based on their doctrine and the technical limits of their hardware, no IJN CV should never be able to contribute more than 50% of its a/c to any one strike wave.
It is a good point. But one that should not be implemented in WitP, at least the current version. The reason I say this is due to the way the air phases are programmed. They basically each cover a 6 hour period and any nation's carrier forces were capable of launching multiple strikes within just a few hours
ORIGINAL: Przemcio231
Yach Guest maybe we will swith sides[:D] But still this game Stock A2A sucks as the only outcome of a Big CV Battle here is "Mariana's Turkey Shoot" for one of the Sides. Come on looking at this game you might think That the Outcome's of Coral Sea and Midway were some Miracles and they were not. The Other Thing Jap CV Armor!!!! come on Those Carriers were not Immune to 500 Lb's[:D] witch is nonsense... Yes i experienced the same thing Playing Willie where he stacekd Lots of AAA and Base Forces in his Bases and i could not tuch them[:D] i think the best solution would be Nik Changes to A2A and lets say 20% increase of AAA Power[:)] But the A2A model is not the only game flow, other are Teleporting Units , Smal Fragment of Paras droped on a hex blocking movement of Few Divisions , Lack of Indian Army Units , Small Parafragment's taking a City , Possibility to starve China with Jap Startegy bombing... and so on and on.... Well i think i will give Nik Mode another shoot[:D]
I agree with Guest - the results of this battle are IMO justified. Especially after Przemcio231 used CV TFs with 3 and 2 carriers - no wonder his strikes were rather uncoordinated. If he had used 1 CV TFs, he probably would have inflicted more damage on the Japanese carriers, too.ORIGINAL: Guest
What wrong is in this battle??
All TF reacted, distance 4 hexes.
Przemcio carriers - only 161 bombers attacked with very bad escort (max 1:4 to my CAP).
My carriers attakcs - 368 bombers with good escort (54->83).
My Zeros didn't stop his bomber. His fighters didn't stop my bombers. But my bombers were more and they had torpedos.
My TF's had BB, Przemcios TF doesn't.
My TF's were stronger than his.
My Zeros had very good pilots. I had more than 80 aces at naval pilots many at carriers. Przemcio hasn't aces at naval pilots.
Sorry but this battle was absolutly normal.
Przemcio lost India. We must change this.
Przemcio lost his carriers. It's sucks. We must change this also.
At last he lost his surface fleet... [:D] Maybe surface battles are also wrong??
But when he won carriers battle - all were ok. Link again:
tm.asp?m=1248479
ORIGINAL: Nikademus
It is a good point. But one that should not be implemented in WitP, at least the current version. The reason I say this is due to the way the air phases are programmed. They basically each cover a 6 hour period and any nation's carrier forces were capable of launching multiple strikes within just a few hours
my god. someone who understands that this isn't a tactical level carrier simulation. [;)]
I never loked teleprting unit. I think that you invent.Teleporting Units
This is not true. We play with house rules and I didn't block any your units in this method.Smal Fragment of Paras droped on a hex blocking movement of Few Divisions ,
You moved many Indian units to Burma. You written that you didn't move. But it don't true.Lack of Indian Army Units
Empty city. We stoped this and take many new rules.Small Parafragment's taking a City
We have house rules and we weren't strategic bombing in China.Possibility to starve China with Jap Startegy bombing.
my god. someone who understands that this isn't a tactical level carrier simulation.
ORIGINAL: Guest
Do you like crying opponent?? [:D]
Sorry but this battle was normal (for NIK mod also).
You lost war versus me. You play Papacy and you totaly ignored protestants it was nonsense.And as for Guest who was crying getting his ass whiped in "Here I Stand
What?? When?? [X(][X(][X(]His first strike consisted of 89 fighters and 108 DB/TB. All were shot down by your 250 Zero CAP.
ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
my god. someone who understands that this isn't a tactical level carrier simulation.
Who, me? You mean, it isn't a tactical level carrier simulation?! Hey, I want my money back!!![:'(]
Chez
There already are multiple raids. Look at this combat report: KB had three waves attack the US CVTF. The existance of multiple waves seems perfectly realistic, and gives a very tactical feel to the execution of the turn. Given this tactical feel, my only problem is with the number of a/c that were in the first of these waves. Seems like a reasonable thing to want to see implemented, given other rules aimed at imparting a tactical feel (strike coordination penalty).ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
Excellent point Mike, based on their doctrine and the technical limits of their hardware, no IJN CV should never be able to contribute more than 50% of its a/c to any one strike wave.
It is a good point. But one that should not be implemented in WitP, at least the current version. The reason I say this is due to the way the air phases are programmed. They basically each cover a 6 hour period and any nation's carrier forces were capable of launching multiple strikes within just a few hours. So whatever launch restriction is put in place, it should apply to US carries also, at least through 1942.
KB launched 2 waves 1 hour apart totalling 350 aircraft against Pearl Harbor in what would be the AM phase in WitP. They were capable of launching further strikes during the rest of the day if Nagumo hadn't rescinded the order. If we limited airstrikes to only 1/2 of the available aircraft, we would not be able to simulate carrier ops with any degree of accuracy.
I think the better solution would be to limit individual raids to 1/2 the available aircraft but allow more than one strike per TF per phase. I think the results would be more realistic in the execution of the launches but we would also compund the uber-CAP problem (for both sides) by doing so. Each raid would be encountering a CAP that, by comparison, is twice as strong as was previously. That is because the size of the raid has been reduced.
I don't know how easy it would be to program multiple TF raids. I suspect it would require some major reprogramming.
Chez
ORIGINAL: Nikademus
my god. someone who understands that this isn't a tactical level carrier simulation. [;)]
ORIGINAL: irrelevant
ORIGINAL: Nikademus
my god. someone who understands that this isn't a tactical level carrier simulation. [;)]
It doesn't have to be a tactical level simulation to include tactical elements that would make turn resolution more realistic.
ORIGINAL: Apollo11
Hi all,
ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
The problem is a simple on of design screw-up. Look at the size of the first Japanese Airstrike. It contains 325 of the less than 200 A/C that Kido Butai could launch in a single strike. (Check Pearl Harbor, check Midway, check anything you want---Japanese CV's launched approximately HALF of their airgroups in a "Strike" because that's all that could be prepared and spotted for launch at one time.). The numbers swamp the defending CAP and Flak. Then toss in the "every man an ace" pilot skills, and the Allies are generally hamburger. Just correcting this one factor would at least give the Allies a fighting chance.
All very true... but USN was much worse than that in 1942... [;)]
Leo "Apollo11"
ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez
Excellent point Mike, based on their doctrine and the technical limits of their hardware, no IJN CV should never be able to contribute more than 50% of its a/c to any one strike wave.
It is a good point. But one that should not be implemented in WitP, at least the current version. The reason I say this is due to the way the air phases are programmed. They basically each cover a 6 hour period and any nation's carrier forces were capable of launching multiple strikes within just a few hours. So whatever launch restriction is put in place, it should apply to US carries also, at least through 1942.
KB launched 2 waves 1 hour apart totalling 350 aircraft against Pearl Harbor in what would be the AM phase in WitP. They were capable of launching further strikes during the rest of the day if Nagumo hadn't rescinded the order. If we limited airstrikes to only 1/2 of the available aircraft, we would not be able to simulate carrier ops with any degree of accuracy.
I think the better solution would be to limit individual raids to 1/2 the available aircraft but allow more than one strike per TF per phase. I think the results would be more realistic in the execution of the launches but we would also compund the uber-CAP problem (for both sides) by doing so. Each raid would be encountering a CAP that, by comparison, is twice as strong as was previously. That is because the size of the raid has been reduced. That's what I was proposing. It's not wrong that all the Japanese planes fly during the Morning Phase, only that they arrive in a huge clump that overwhelms the defense. Had they arrived as 180 and 170, I'd have no complaint. "Uber-Cap" should suffer the same restrictions. Just because you have 120 Fighters on CAP doesn't mean that they are all in the air at the right moment. Should probably be no more than 40-60% that can meet an attack...with the Americans getting better as the war goes on and they master the FDC/Radar coordination. But even in the Mariana's Turkey Shoot not every fighter was involved in every intercept.
I don't know how easy it would be to program multiple TF raids. I suspect it would require some major reprogramming.
Chez