Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: m10bob

This thread in particular shows the value of many heads contributing for a common goal.
Only when somebody prints information, is it possible for others to either verify or prove error.
Unfortunately (as in this case), while Sid had the dubious distinction of factually improving on past WITP versions, the "improvements" may not have been totally accurate, in every case. Nothing against Sid, (or past modders, though this point may sometimes be lost on we critics.)[:D]

Correct assessment!

When I provide information about the Indian Army, most of it comes from 'Loyalty & Honour' by Kempton and/or WO documents, so much about sources...

But the fact remains that Empire Land units present their own challenges:

If one wants to understands the way of Commonwealth divisions, one has to understand, that these divisions had no "organic" assets like Japanese, US, or German formations (as a general rule). Thus the actual composition of divisions (and brigades) changed continuously while their basic TOE's did not change that much (always three brigades per division).

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: m10bob

This thread in particular shows the value of many heads contributing for a common goal.
Only when somebody prints information, is it possible for others to either verify or prove error.
Unfortunately (as in this case), while Sid had the dubious distinction of factually improving on past WITP versions, the "improvements" may not have been totally accurate, in every case. Nothing against Sid, (or past modders, though this point may sometimes be lost on we critics.)[:D]

Correct assessment!

When I provide information about the Indian Army, most of it comes from 'Loyalty & Honour' by Kempton and/or WO documents, so much about sources...

But the fact remains that Empire Land units present their own challenges:

If one wants to understands the way of Commonwealth divisions, one has to understand, that these divisions had no "organic" assets like Japanese, US, or German formations (as a general rule). Thus the actual composition of divisions (and brigades) changed continuously while their basic TOE's did not change that much (always three brigades per division).

I'm hip, and this altering of OOB's has happened thruout recent history.
Even though the South Korean Infantry Divisions were supposedly modelled after American divisions,in 1949-1951 they did not contain the inherent armor nor artillery units enjoyed by American infantry divisions, (which employ true "combined arms".)

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This isn't true Herwin: even years into the war (from UK point of view) the mg battalion was a CORPS asset - NOT divisional - according to an official US Army Manual intended to explain the British organization to US troops who needed to understand it. Some have said that by midwar this changed: OK - when? And did that apply to PTO?

The conversion of infantry battalions to MG battalions began prewar (Cheshire Regiment, PLOK London Regiment, Manchester Regiment, Middlesex Regiment, Royal Northumberland Fusiliers, etc.), but a lot of divisions deployed without them due to shortages. If you try to track the individual MG battalions, you'll find they were divisional MG battalions from the beginning of the war. (See <http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk> for info.) Similarly, the Commonwealth divisions had their MG battalions from the start. The US Army Manual is incorrect.

Similarly a lot of OB researchers say PTO divisions had 2 brigades. Clearly there is at least some of this happening. I want to know if that is normal or exceptional, or changes over time? Ideally I want to know for each division.

Check the OB site <http://www.ordersofbattle.com/>. The Indian Light Infantry Division OB had two Brigade Groups (the CW still used BGs into 1944), two infantry battalions with the division HQ, and an MG battalion. Slim discusses this. The standard OB was three BGs, but the actual number varied.

ORIGINAL: herwin

The Indian Light Infantry Division OB had two Brigade Groups (the CW still used BGs into 1944), two infantry battalions with the division HQ, and an MG battalion. Slim discusses this. The standard OB was three BGs, but the actual number varied.

There was only one Indian Light Division, the 39th. It was basically a redesignation of (the remains of) 1st Burma Division. It trained for a long penetration role between June 42 and June 43, but was given a training role instead of seeing action as planned.

The division consisted of only two brigades, but the real 'special' thing of it was that it had six mule and four jeep coys instead of the usual transport establishment. In some ways it was an experimental formation that eventually lead to the development of the LRP ("Chindits") brigades. And it only had one Field Rgt and one LAA/AT Rgt (and only between March and August 1943).

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: herwin

The Indian Light Infantry Division OB had two Brigade Groups (the CW still used BGs into 1944), two infantry battalions with the division HQ, and an MG battalion. Slim discusses this. The standard OB was three BGs, but the actual number varied.

There was only one Indian Light Division, the 39th. It was basically a redesignation of (the remains of) 1st Burma Division. It trained for a long penetration role between June 42 and June 43, but was given a training role instead of seeing action as planned.

The division consisted of only two brigades, but the real 'special' thing of it was that it had six mule and four jeep coys instead of the usual transport establishment. In some ways it was an experimental formation that eventually lead to the development of the LRP ("Chindits") brigades. And it only had one Field Rgt and one LAA/AT Rgt (and only between March and August 1943).

17th Indian Light Division
81st WA Infantry Division

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

If one wants to understands the way of Commonwealth divisions, one has to understand, that these divisions had no "organic" assets like Japanese, US, or German formations (as a general rule). Thus the actual composition of divisions (and brigades) changed continuously while their basic TOE's did not change that much (always three brigades per division).

Ah ha - I understand. Taking administrative organization and task organization to an extream: and what we care about operatoinally is the elusive task organization. Worse - being dynamic - and we must lock in units (almost) to one (or two) variations - what they have when they appear - and what they "grow" into a short time later (usually).

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This isn't true Herwin: even years into the war (from UK point of view) the mg battalion was a CORPS asset - NOT divisional - according to an official US Army Manual intended to explain the British organization to US troops who needed to understand it. Some have said that by midwar this changed: OK - when? And did that apply to PTO?

The conversion of infantry battalions to MG battalions began prewar (Cheshire Regiment, PLOK London Regiment, Manchester Regiment, Middlesex Regiment, Royal Northumberland Fusiliers, etc.), but a lot of divisions deployed without them due to shortages. If you try to track the individual MG battalions, you'll find they were divisional MG battalions from the beginning of the war. (See <http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk> for info.) Similarly, the Commonwealth divisions had their MG battalions from the start. The US Army Manual is incorrect.

But still sold in reprint. By the British no less! Wonderful.
So how come there are no mg at all in the OB we use (prior to my adding a few)? This is secret?

Similarly a lot of OB researchers say PTO divisions had 2 brigades. Clearly there is at least some of this happening. I want to know if that is normal or exceptional, or changes over time? Ideally I want to know for each division.

Check the OB site <http://www.ordersofbattle.com/>. The Indian Light Infantry Division OB had two Brigade Groups (the CW still used BGs into 1944), two infantry battalions with the division HQ, and an MG battalion. Slim discusses this. The standard OB was three BGs, but the actual number varied.

So a division Indian had about 8 battalions - just as Dunnigan said - but only six in the brigades. And only two brigade staffs - into 1944. So the OB isn't bad. Now - why are ALL the Indian divisions and brigades so weak on the map? Was there a lot of growth going on?

ORIGINAL: el cid again

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This isn't true Herwin: even years into the war (from UK point of view) the mg battalion was a CORPS asset - NOT divisional - according to an official US Army Manual intended to explain the British organization to US troops who needed to understand it. Some have said that by midwar this changed: OK - when? And did that apply to PTO?

The conversion of infantry battalions to MG battalions began prewar (Cheshire Regiment, PLOK London Regiment, Manchester Regiment, Middlesex Regiment, Royal Northumberland Fusiliers, etc.), but a lot of divisions deployed without them due to shortages. If you try to track the individual MG battalions, you'll find they were divisional MG battalions from the beginning of the war. (See <http://www.vickersmachinegun.org.uk> for info.) Similarly, the Commonwealth divisions had their MG battalions from the start. The US Army Manual is incorrect.

But still sold in reprint. By the British no less! Wonderful.
So how come there are no mg at all in the OB we use (prior to my adding a few)? This is secret?

Similarly a lot of OB researchers say PTO divisions had 2 brigades. Clearly there is at least some of this happening. I want to know if that is normal or exceptional, or changes over time? Ideally I want to know for each division.

Check the OB site <http://www.ordersofbattle.com/>. The Indian Light Infantry Division OB had two Brigade Groups (the CW still used BGs into 1944), two infantry battalions with the division HQ, and an MG battalion. Slim discusses this. The standard OB was three BGs, but the actual number varied.

So a division Indian had about 8 battalions - just as Dunnigan said - but only six in the brigades. And only two brigade staffs - into 1944. So the OB isn't bad. Now - why are ALL the Indian divisions and brigades so weak on the map? Was there a lot of growth going on?

The British stripped the more experienced Indian units/personnel for the Middle East and North Africa. There was a large scale growth in the Indian Army going on 41-42.

ORIGINAL: el cid again


So a division Indian had about 8 battalions - just as Dunnigan said - but only six in the brigades. And only two brigade staffs - into 1944. So the OB isn't bad. Now - why are ALL the Indian divisions and brigades so weak on the map? Was there a lot of growth going on?

Also remember that there was almost always one regular British BN in each of the Indian Army Brigades. Also, the majority of the senior and fieled grade officers were also British, at least early war. Unfortunately I do not have acess to my volumns on the british Army auth0red by Bevis handy to mak any more exact assessments.

ORIGINAL: el cid again

This isn't true Herwin: even years into the war (from UK point of view) the mg battalion was a CORPS asset - NOT divisional - according to an official US Army Manual intended to explain the British organization to US troops who needed to understand it. Some have said that by midwar this changed: OK - when? And did that apply to PTO?

Niehorster places them as being standard by October 1942. I rather suspect it was earlier than this. The problem is that by 1944 the MG BN's were morphed into a LAA/AT BNs. There was not a standard entire war TOE for the British units, like you find for the US Divisions.

ORIGINAL: herwin

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: herwin

The Indian Light Infantry Division OB had two Brigade Groups (the CW still used BGs into 1944), two infantry battalions with the division HQ, and an MG battalion. Slim discusses this. The standard OB was three BGs, but the actual number varied.

There was only one Indian Light Division, the 39th. It was basically a redesignation of (the remains of) 1st Burma Division. It trained for a long penetration role between June 42 and June 43, but was given a training role instead of seeing action as planned.

The division consisted of only two brigades, but the real 'special' thing of it was that it had six mule and four jeep coys instead of the usual transport establishment. In some ways it was an experimental formation that eventually lead to the development of the LRP ("Chindits") brigades. And it only had one Field Rgt and one LAA/AT Rgt (and only between March and August 1943).

17th Indian Light Division
81st WA Infantry Division

17th Indian Division functioned as a training division from summer 1942 onwards (after the retreat from Burma) and the African Infantry divisions are a completely different affair: Less motor transport and lighter artillery (3.7in Mountain Howitzers and 4.2in Mortars upon arrival in the CBI, later replaced by 25pdrs [light version]), but otherwise standard.

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior
The British stripped the more experienced Indian units/personnel for the Middle East and North Africa. There was a large scale growth in the Indian Army going on 41-42.

Correct, there was no shortage of Indian infantry when the Pacific War started. The main infantry buildup had started in the summer of 1941. Not many new battalions were raised between 1942-45. But it seems that most newly raised formations lacked training and officers (most Indian recruits did not speak English and thus their British officers had to learn the language of the battalion they were posted to first).

ORIGINAL: el cid again

So a division Indian had about 8 battalions - just as Dunnigan said - but only six in the brigades. And only two brigade staffs - into 1944. So the OB isn't bad. Now - why are ALL the Indian divisions and brigades so weak on the map? Was there a lot of growth going on?

No! Forget about the Light Division stuff - it was the exception, not the rule! Indian divisions lacked artillery (field artillery, AT, LAA) and recce assets, not manpower. Actually most had 10 infantry battalions (the tenth for HQ protection).

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

Also remember that there was almost always one regular British BN in each of the Indian Army Brigades. Also, the majority of the senior and fieled grade officers were also British, at least early war. Unfortunately I do not have acess to my volumns on the british Army auth0red by Bevis handy to mak any more exact assessments.

One of the more interesting aspects of Indian brigades in the CBI is that most of them had no British battalion until 1943; there were simply not enough British battalions available in the theatre until then. But this was "corrected" in 1943 when many British territorial battalions were send to India and a big reorganization and reshuffling of battalions happened.

K, In "And We will Shock Them" by David Fraser it says the 14th Indian commanded 9 Brigades AT VARIOUS TImes, so my assumption that it was all at once is incorrect.

Malaya  Dec 1941

[font="times new roman"]9th Indian Infantry Division[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"]8 Bde[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"]3/17 Dogras[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/10 Baluchistan[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1/12 Frontier Force Rifles[/font]
[font="times new roman"]22 Bde[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"]2/18 Garwhal Rifles[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5/11 Sikh[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/12 Frontier Force Rifles[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5 Fd Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]88 Fd Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]11th Indian Infantry Division[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"]15 Bde[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"]2/9 Jat[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1/14 Punjab[/font]
[font="times new roman"]3/16 Punjab[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Leicesters[/font]
[font="times new roman"]6 Bde[/font][/b]
[font="times new roman"]2/16 Punjab[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 East Surrey[/font]
[font="times new roman"]22 Mtn Gun Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]3 Cav Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]155 Fd Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]137 Fd Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]80 AT Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]17th Indian Infantry Division ????[/font]
[font="times new roman"]44 Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]6/1 Punjab[/font]
[font="times new roman"]7/8 Punjab[/font]
[font="times new roman"]6/4 Punjab[/font]
[font="times new roman"]45 Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]4/9 Jat[/font]
[font="times new roman"]7/6 Rajputana[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5/18 Garwhal[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]100 Indep Tk Sqn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]85 AT Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]12th Infantry Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5/2 Punjab[/font]
[font="times new roman"]4/19 Hyderabad[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 Argyll & Sutherland Highland[/font]
[font="times new roman"]122 Fd Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]28th Infantry Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/1 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/2 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/9 Gurkha[/font]
[font="times new roman"]135 Fd Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Penang Garrison[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5/14 Punjab[/font]
[font="times new roman"]11 CA Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]Singapore Garrison[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Jind Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Kapurthala Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]16 Defense Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]7 CA Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]9 CA Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Bahawalpur Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Mysore Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Hyderabad Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Malay Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Malay Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 Malay Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 Loyals[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 Malaya Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Manchester[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/17 Dogra[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 Gordon Highlander[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]1, 2 & 4 SSVF Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Special Reserve Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]8th Australian Infantry Division[/font]
[font="times new roman"]22 Infantry Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/18, 2/19 & 2/20 Bns[/font]
[font="times new roman"]27 Infantry Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/26, 2/29 & 2/30 Bns[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/10 & 2/15 Fd Rgts[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/4 MG Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2/? AT Rgt[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]18 British Infantry Division[/font]
[font="times new roman"]53 Infantry Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5 Royal Norfolk[/font]
[font="times new roman"]6 Royal Norfolk[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 Cambridgeshire[/font]
[font="times new roman"]54 Infantry Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]4 Royal Norfolk[/font]
[font="times new roman"]4 Suffolk[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5 Suffolk[/font]
[font="times new roman"]55 Infantry Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Cambridgeshire[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1/5 Sherwood Foresters[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5 Bedfordshire & Hertsford[/font]
[font="times new roman"] [/font]
[font="times new roman"]148 & 118 Fd Rgts[/font]
[font="times new roman"]18 Recon Bn[/font]
[font="times new roman"]Royal Northumberland Fusiliers (MG)[/font]

So 9 & 11 Divs had only 2 Bdes, but there are 2 unattached Indian Infantry Bdes, also the 3rd Bde from 17th Indian was sent to Malaya.

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

ORIGINAL: herwin
17th Indian Light Division
81st WA Infantry Division

17th Indian Division functioned as a training division from summer 1942 onwards (after the retreat from Burma) and the African Infantry divisions are a completely different affair: Less motor transport and lighter artillery (3.7in Mountain Howitzers and 4.2in Mortars upon arrival in the CBI, later replaced by 25pdrs [light version]), but otherwise standard.

The 82 WA was as you described. The 81 WA was binary and operated as a light division. The 17th ILD fought almost continuously through the Burma campaign and was never a training division.

[font="times new roman"]INDIAN ARMY [/font]
[font="times new roman"]&nbsp;[/font]
[font="times new roman"]7 December 1941[/font]
[font="times new roman"]&nbsp;[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Armoured Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 1 Arm Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 3 Motor Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 Armoured Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 4 Arm Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5 Arm Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]&nbsp;[/font]
[font="times new roman"]2 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Formed 15/8/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]3 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Formed 15/8/42&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Chindits 18/9/43[/font]
[font="times new roman"]4 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 5 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 7 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 11 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]5 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 9 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 10 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 161 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]6 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 24 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 26 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 27 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]7 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 14 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 33 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]8 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 17 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 18 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 19 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]9 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 8 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 22 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]10 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 Armd Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 20 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 21 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 25 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]11 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 6 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 15 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]12 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Formed 15/12/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]14 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; 23 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 36 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 37 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]17 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; 44 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 45 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 46 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]19 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;47 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 48 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 49 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]20 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Formed 15/3/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]21 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Formed 4/5/44[/font]
[font="times new roman"]23 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 63 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 98 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; (Div formed 1/1/42)[/font]
[font="times new roman"]25 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Formed 1/8/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]26 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;Formed 15/5/42[/font]
[font="times new roman"]34 Infantry Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 98 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 99 Inf Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 100 Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"]1 Burma Div&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;1 Burma Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 2 Burma Bde&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; 13 Indian Inf Bde[/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font]&nbsp;
[font="times new roman"]I think K was mixed with the Burma Div which became 39 Lt Div on 20/6/42 and then became a Training Div[/font]

ORIGINAL: herwin

The 81 WA was binary and operated as a light division. The 17th ILD fought almost continuously through the Burma campaign and was never a training division.

81st WA Division was not binary - its third brigade (3rd WA Bde) was detached to 3rd Indian Division (Special Operations) as part of the "Chindits" most of the time. But if I remember correctly, it eventually received one East African bde to make up for its missing brigade.

Have to look at 17th Indian division when at home (I'm at work now), but I'm pretty sure that it saw no action after June 1942 (If I remember correctly, it stayed at Shillong).

By 31/8/45 81 WA Div had 3,5 & 6 WA Bdes.

The 3rd Bde reattached in Mar 45

Thanks Jeff