Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Froonp


I'd like to make Northeast New Guinea appear on the map (I love historical accuracy), unfortunately we are reaching the limit of the number of countries in the game. Merging all 3 into one would help, but I'm worried to do that because of conquest / liberations issues, especially with New Britain.

It's an intriguing dilemma. But I think North East New Guinea (note that 'North East' is two words here, though I have also seen it hyphenated) should appear and should include everything that constituted the German colony as a single entity. Because the campaign down the Kokoda Trail and then along the coast is well documented (unlike Tannu Tuva!), any avid reader of military histories is going to feel a bit put out if an entire mandate does not appear in the game.

As for the conquest requirements, I suggest a compromise: leave Lae and delete Wewak. I particularly like the idea of giving the Japanese an incentive to land at Lae, as it makes an overland attack on Port Moresby so much more likely ("Having come this far, may as well try for Port Moresby"). And Lae was much more important than Wewak.

Could you also have a look at the gap between New Britain and New Ireland? This seems too big to me. I thought the two were so close they might even have deserved a crossing arrow.

As a possession, Papua was administered differently from North East New Guinea. In June 1942 it had a battalion of militia (the 39th) and "the Papuan Infantry Battalion".

Please give me a rule reference preventing the garrisoning of CW possessions: I had a look at US Entry Options but couldn't find anything relevant.

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Please give me a rule reference preventing the garrisoning of CW possessions: I had a look at US Entry Options but couldn't find anything relevant.

US Entry Option

36. CW reinforces Pacific - Allied land and aircraft units can’t enter Hong Kong or any CW controlled territory on the Pacific map until:
ï you have chosen this option; or
ï Japan is at war with the Commonwealth; or
ï an Axis land unit has entered Hong Kong or any CW Pacific map territory.

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
It's an intriguing dilemma. But I think North East New Guinea (note that 'North East' is two words here, though I have also seen it hyphenated) should appear and should include everything that constituted the German colony as a single entity. Because the campaign down the Kokoda Trail and then along the coast is well documented (unlike Tannu Tuva!), any avid reader of military histories is going to feel a bit put out if an entire mandate does not appear in the game.

I will add the name of the Australian Mandate area, that is "Territory of New Guinea" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territory_of_New_Guinea) on the map, but will leave the rest as it is. I don't think this is much a problem to have Papua and the Territory of New Guinea being agglomerated into one single Papua entity. There are other places, like Baluchistan in western India, Jehol seized by Japan and annexed to Manchukuo, maybe some USSR republics too or territories in the NEI, that might deserve separate territory status under the rule of the country that controls them now, but I think this goes too far. The original designers could have done this to the original maps, there is the room for that, and in keeping with the minimalistic changes approach, I prefer not to open that pandora box.

As for the conquest requirements, I suggest a compromise: leave Lae and delete Wewak. I particularly like the idea of giving the Japanese an incentive to land at Lae, as it makes an overland attack on Port Moresby so much more likely ("Having come this far, may as well try for Port Moresby"). And Lae was much more important than Wewak.

the incencitive to land at Lae is already there, as it is in WiF FE : It is a mountain hex, and a minor port here allows you to base planes. It would have been better if the Sea Area border was at Lea instead of SE of it, but the designers had it this way, so be it.

Could you also have a look at the gap between New Britain and New Ireland? This seems too big to me. I thought the two were so close they might even have deserved a crossing arrow.

No, I can't. Too much work to do here.

ORIGINAL: Zorachus99

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Please give me a rule reference preventing the garrisoning of CW possessions: I had a look at US Entry Options but couldn't find anything relevant.

US Entry Option

36. CW reinforces Pacific - Allied land and aircraft units can’t enter Hong Kong or any CW controlled territory on the Pacific map until:
ï you have chosen this option; or
ï Japan is at war with the Commonwealth; or
ï an Axis land unit has entered Hong Kong or any CW Pacific map territory.

And usually, when the USA have reached the 34 entry level, they play the War Appropriation Bill, which is a 1-2 turn advance warning that they will declare war to Japan or Germany, so usually the USA are declared war upon real soon after option 34 and do not get the opportunity to play the option that follow.
Having played 18 global war scenarios (2 underway, and a couple not finished), I never seen the USA play that option. Sure it might happen, but this need exceptional circumstances IMO.
The bottom line is that in most games, Japan should be able to grab Rabaul, Hongkong, and any other CW territory they like to seize, for free during their red wave turn (Invasions on the suprise turn impose a penalty on the strength of the notional unit -- that defend any hex against an invasion -- that have it worth 0 combat points, except if that hex is a city or in the ZoC of unit -- In that case, the notional would need to be isolated to be worth 0 combat points).

Option 36 is a strong one. It is a good move to play it before 34 sometimes, I wouldn't play every game the same. You can easily get the entry level at the same time with a single chit draw. Yeah, costs a turn of using option 34, but dropping the Australian GARRison unit in Rabaul is a serious thorn in Japan's side. Perhaps most useful in a game where Japan is doing the best among the Axis.

The Wikipedia entry for Lae confirms that Rabaul and Lae were part of the same territory:
 
"When the volcanic eruptions occurred in Rabaul in 1937 a decision was made to transfer the capital of the Territory of New Guinea to Lae. World War II got in the way of the transfer and in 1942 the town was occupied by the Empire of Japan. Lae, Rabaul and Salamaua became the major Japanese bases in New Guinea."

Option 36 twice has the word 'territory' in italics.  What is the definition of a territory?  Which CW areas on the map are free of this restriction because they are not territories?

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

Option 36 twice has the word 'territory' in italics.  What is the definition of a territory?  Which CW areas on the map are free of this restriction because they are not territories?

In WiF, there are 3 political entities.
- Major Powers
- Minor Countries
- Territories.

Major Powers and Minor Countries have capital cities, it is what define them. Territories have no Capital. The difference between Major Powers and Minor Countries is just that the players control Major Powers, and that Major Powers can build an independent army.
Major Powers can control Minor Countries and Territories, and Minor Countries can control other Minor Countries and Territories.
Major Powers & Minor Countries are conquered when their capital and their factories are enemy controlled (Exceptions : France & Italy). They can surrender when half their factories are enemy controlled. Territories are conquered when all their ports, or all their hexes, are enemy controlled.

On the Pacific Map, Except for Australia and New Zealand who are CW Major Powers, there is no CW area that is not a Territory. Papua, New Britain, New Ireland, the Solomons, the Gilberts, etc... all are territories.

Also, see here : tm.asp?m=1272834

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney

The Wikipedia entry for Lae confirms that Rabaul and Lae were part of the same territory:

"When the volcanic eruptions occurred in Rabaul in 1937 a decision was made to transfer the capital of the Territory of New Guinea to Lae. World War II got in the way of the transfer and in 1942 the town was occupied by the Empire of Japan. Lae, Rabaul and Salamaua became the major Japanese bases in New Guinea."

Ah la la... I'm very much tempted into merging those 3 territories (New Britian, New Ireland, Admiralties Islands, plus the northeastern part of Papua) into one.... "Territory of New Guinea".
Would need Japan to control Rabaul + Lae + Wewak to control what they controlled historicaly... It's true that I like that...

I just don't like the departure from WiF FE....

The really big change in MWiF is the change of scale in the Pacific.  Measured against that earthquake, I don't think anyone is going to complain if we take the opportunity to improve geo-political accuracy in passing...
 
Could you display the relevant WiF FE maps for comparison please?
 
Just to nit-pick, though ... the red line north of Bougainville should be to the south, as that island was technically also part of the Territory of New Guinea (That doesn't affect anything of course).
 
Bougainville was a major airbase for first the Japanese and later the Allies.  Yes, the north is mountainous, but the southwest is flat and low.  I think the southern hex of Bougainville should be clear.

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Could you display the relevant WiF FE maps for comparison please?

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
The really big change in MWiF is the change of scale in the Pacific.  Measured against that earthquake, I don't think anyone is going to complain if we take the opportunity to improve geo-political accuracy in passing...

Are there other opinions ? All what Marcus said is true about the Territory of New Guinea.
Do you think that it should be considered a Territory including New Britain, New Ireland, Admiralty Islands the northeast part of Papua, and Bougainville ?

Just to nit-pick, though ... the red line north of Bougainville should be to the south, as that island was technically also part of the Territory of New Guinea (That doesn't affect anything of course).

Right, of course [:D]
This guy makes me feel miserable, he keeps finding problems [;)]

Bougainville was a major airbase for first the Japanese and later the Allies.  Yes, the north is mountainous, but the southwest is flat and low.  I think the southern hex of Bougainville should be clear.

Clear ? Clear as a tank country ? Wouldn't it be better as Jungle ?
Hard to change for me as it is a coastal hex. Only Steve can do that [TERR file, change the 3rd digit for 125,184 from 5 to 4 for jungle, 2 for clear, regenerate the coastal hex file, include it in the master coastal hex file].
As a remark, WiF FE map has it a mountain too, but WiF FE has it in a single hex.

Would need Japan to control Rabaul + Lae + Wewak to control what they controlled historicaly... It's true that I like that...

This seems like quite an anti-Japanese change to the capture of territories in this area, forcing Japan to commit quite a bit more then they normally do.

Lets face it, nearly all of Japan's gains in this area are during the single impulse of the 'red wave' as you call it. Requiring more forces to accomplish the same task is asking Japan to commit forces they generally dont have. The 'red wave' after all is usually just 3-4 corps and 5-6 divisions to conquer a couple million square miles of Earth.

ORIGINAL: Froonp

ORIGINAL: marcuswatney
Bougainville was a major airbase for first the Japanese and later the Allies.  Yes, the north is mountainous, but the southwest is flat and low.  I think the southern hex of Bougainville should be clear.

Clear ? Clear as a tank country ? Wouldn't it be better as Jungle ?
Hard to change for me as it is a coastal hex. Only Steve can do that [TERR file, change the 3rd digit for 125,184 from 5 to 4 for jungle, 2 for clear, regenerate the coastal hex file, include it in the master coastal hex file].
As a remark, WiF FE map has it a mountain too, but WiF FE has it in a single hex.

I'd prefer jungle.
Bougainville nowadays is a member of the Solomons Islands Rain Forests ecoregion. That must be more jungle than clear terrain on Bougainville.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon_Is ... in_forests

Agreed, Bougainville south hex should be Jungle. There were mountains on the island, but the important parts militarily (the airfields) were on the lowland coastal areas that were covered in jungle. Splitting the isle into 1mtn and 1jng hex would show this nicely I think.

ORIGINAL: Norman42

Would need Japan to control Rabaul + Lae + Wewak to control what they controlled historicaly... It's true that I like that...

This seems like quite an anti-Japanese change to the capture of territories in this area, forcing Japan to commit quite a bit more then they normally do.

Lets face it, nearly all of Japan's gains in this area are during the single impulse of the 'red wave' as you call it. Requiring more forces to accomplish the same task is asking Japan to commit forces they generally dont have. The 'red wave' after all is usually just 3-4 corps and 5-6 divisions to conquer a couple million square miles of Earth.

This is exactly why I'm asking the question.

I vote for keeping the 3 territories separate.

As for other changes that involve changing the coastal and'or river/lake bitmaps, I'll accept revisions once a month - let's say on the 15th of each month. It is a pain to do these.

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

I vote for keeping the 3 territories separate.

As for other changes that involve changing the coastal and'or river/lake bitmaps, I'll accept revisions once a month - let's say on the 15th of each month. It is a pain to do these.

Maybe we can just separate the Territory of New Guinea from Papua ?
Argg, I remember, he said me to forget it [:D]

This is said, I found a beautifull map about the Pacific (http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USA/USA ... pua-I.html), done in 1943 and with the 1939 borders, and if you look at it, you see that Japan was given a Mandate over the Mariana, the Carolines, the Palau, and the Marshalls.

It would not be good for the game to merge all of them in a single Japanese Mandate, so maybe it is better to ignore the Mandates, and just keep the countries we have ?

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
As for other changes that involve changing the coastal and'or river/lake bitmaps, I'll accept revisions once a month - let's say on the 15th of each month. It is a pain to do these.

I'll keep them in a list then, that I'll give you once per month.

My feeling is that expanding the scale brings with it an obligation to improve accuracy.  Or looked at another way, errors which can be forgiven in WiF FE because those Pacific maps were drawn with a broad brush, and with a child's blobs for islands, aren't really excusable given the naturalistic look and superb detail achieved with MWiF.  It's a well-documented area, and, for me at any rate, seeing the Territory of (North East) New Guinea not recognised as a functioning entity does make me wince.
 
Since considerable care has been taken to properly delineate obscure groups of islands such as the Marquesas, shouldn't we take at least the same care with territories that are actually in the front-line?
 
My feeling is that creating the Territory to include the northeast coast of New Guinea, Admiralty Islands, New Britain, New Ireland and Bougainville is a neutral change.  Correct me if I am wrong, but my reasoning is:
 
1.  The capture of Rabaul itself is not affected ... and ultimately that's the only hex which is truly important.
 
2.  With the old division, the capture of Rabaul led to the control of the four other unimportant hexes of New Britain.  With the new Territory, a Japanese ground unit will just have to expend some movement factors to pick these up and achieve the same result.
 
3.  With the old division, control of Port Moresby, Lae and Wewak was necessary to gain overall control of 'Papua', so in practice the Japanese had to just pick up hexes by moving through them.  With the new Territory, control of Rabaul, Lae and Wewak gives them overall control of everything north of the Bismarck Range (and nothing south of it).
 
4.  Yes, it requires more effort for the Japanese to capture Rabaul, Lae and Wewak to get a 'result'.  But the reward is greater ... automatic capture of northeast New Guinea, Admiralty Islands, New Ireland, New Britain and Bougainville without having to launch spurious invasions to pick up perimeter hexes.
 
5.  And the point is that there is no obligation on the Japanese player to deviate from established practice (grab Rabaul, and pick up Lae later).  He can still do that if he wants.  But he also now has the alternative of picking up some real estate to hold as a defensive perimeter by taking the trouble to capture just three hexes.
 
With the new configuration, I think the standard strategy will be to take only Rabaul in the 'red wave', and in some other impulse (as needs dictate) invade Wewak and subsequently march overland to Lae.  With Rabaul, Wewak and Lae controlled, the Japanese player can then deploy air units around a defensive perimeter as may be needed.  I don't think that is a huge change.