Looking for trouble with AFB --> BOUNCE

[tabpub]

The point of this thread is how can a bouncer "bounce" the bouncee if it can't reach the bouncee's altitude. The game gives a huge advantage to the side that achieves "the bounce" but it seems that "bouncing" in the game does not take altitude into consideration, it just applies a surprise factor.

Ex. Tojos puttering along at 35k....sight flight of 4 Hurries 10k below, wingover and dive on them. Meanwhile, a Hurricane squadron that is vectored in by the Dacca radar controller had taken up a position in the stratocumulus and slices right in on the Imperials as they chase the patrol flight....ouila...

Seriously, if the alititude was an "unchanging" factor---
<Gentlemen, the hard floor for today's flight is Angel's 35; do not drop below it for any circumstance.>
---you wouldn't have hardly any air combat, as the groups fly by each other refusing to change altitudes, either up or down.

For fighter combat, altitude appears to be part of the initiative determination, other than that, it doesn't matter as much as people think, in my opinion. It's mainly for the bombers, to determine where they are at for the AAA fire.

Now, back to your regularly scheduled mud-slinging....

[ChezDaJez]

But anyway - the manual does not apparently automatically award the "bounce" to the aircraft higher in altitude.

And it shouldn't. It should be about achieving tactical surprise. In most cases in WWII, the bounce was from a higher altitude. A Me-163 with its superb ROC might achieve a bounce from a lower altitude but that would be a unique situation. If the intercepter was spotted before beginning its attack it loses the element of surprise which means it shouldn't be awarded the bounce bonus, regardless of altitude.

The question remains though: "How can a bouncer bounce a bouncee if it can't get to the bouncee's altitude?" If someone can answer that question, they win a gold star!

Chez

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

But anyway - the manual does not apparently automatically award the "bounce" to the aircraft higher in altitude.

And it shouldn't. It should be about achieving tactical surprise. In most cases in WWII, the bounce was from a higher altitude. A Me-163 with its superb ROC might achieve a bounce from a lower altitude but that would be a unique situation. If the intercepter was spotted before beginning its attack it loses the element of surprise which means it shouldn't be awarded the bounce bonus, regardless of altitude.

The question remains though: "How can a bouncer bounce a bouncee if it can't get to the bouncee's altitude?" If someone can answer that question, they win a gold star!

Chez

It is right here (dosen't make "real-world" sense to us, but the game doesn't care about that):

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen


Just read Section 7.2.2.10 of the rules ("Impact of Altitude Selection"):

"When fighters attack other fighters, the fighters deemed to have initiative will change their altitude to that of the fighters they are attacking"

and

"Other than impacting P-39 and P-400 performance, altitude does not impact air to air combat with one exception: aircraft that are reinforcing CAP due to radar contact of the incoming strike may not be able to climb fast enough to engage the incoming bombers."

[ChezDaJez]

Ex. Tojos puttering along at 35k....sight flight of 4 Hurries 10k below, wingover and dive on them. Meanwhile, a Hurricane squadron that is vectored in by the Dacca radar controller had taken up a position in the stratocumulus and slices right in on the Imperials as they chase the patrol flight....ouila...

A plausible scenario though I doubt Hurricanes would catch diving Tojos before the Tojos engaged the other flight. They would have to be very close to the action at the start.

Regardless, Tojos at 35,000 feet have the initiative to engage or refuse combat against most other fighters. They may not have tactical surprise ("the bounce") but they would certainly have an advantage if they chose to engage.

The A-A model is pretty complex but it doesn't seem to include many aspects that one would think should be a part of it. That's probably why it's so bloody. There should be an advantage given to the higher aircraft when engaging and if surprise is achieved, then a bonus applied.

There is also no routine that prevents a fighter unit from engaging several enemy units operating at grossly different altitudes. In effect, WitP allows the same Zeros at Midway to not only engage the torpedo planes but also smack the dive bombers too. That's because altitude is not used as a discriminator for combat.

That probably a partial explaination for the early Japanese uber CAP and the late Allied uber CAP.

Chez

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: timtom

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: timtom

Anyone actually know what "bounce" means in practical game terms? Does it do anything? If so, what? Or is it just eye candy? I've seen "X bounces Y, Y shoots down X" often enough.

it is supposed to be an initial advantage in air combat - you get to go first

Quickly before the mods shut this one down...

Well, one would automatically presume so, but is it actually the case or is it just more WitP arcana? I'm not convinced that the A2A messages aren't just a smokescreen to convey the idea that the model is more complex than actually is the case.

Chris, you're getting bounced 24/7 - is this reflected in your losses? I know you'd need access to the code to really answer this one, but hey

It seems to reflect in the losses. This is not a rant about that I´m taking too many losses (not yet) but I´m taking considerable more losses when my planes are bounced. At least that´s what I´m thinking to see as those same opponents are shot to pieces if they don´t bounce my planes.

The reason why I started this thread is the fact that 99% of the bounces in my game against Przemcio (Nik mod 8.0b) are in Allied favour. If someone wants to ask Prz, go ahead, he´s watching the same combat replay over Dacca as I do.

So if the altitude is no factor in a sweep in the game (which seems faulty to me at all) and it´s all only about surprise then it´s still wrong that my fighters are bounced on and on in an airbattle because the surprise is gone sometime ---> especially when I outnumber my enemy at least 2:1.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

The point of this thread is how can a bouncer "bounce" the bouncee if it can't reach the bouncee's altitude. The game gives a huge advantage to the side that achieves "the bounce" but it seems that "bouncing" in the game does not take altitude into consideration, it just applies a surprise factor.

Chez

I thought the point of this thread was "Looking for trouble with AFB[:@]"

But anyway - the manual does not apparently automatically award the "bounce" to the aircraft higher in altitude.

I´ve chosen this title because I exactly knew that those FB would jump in anyway bitching around. If you read about my situation (perhaps read it???? hmmm???) and then still say "hey, it´s okayyyyy" then I just ignore your further posts so that everyone can calm down...

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Ex. Tojos puttering along at 35k....sight flight of 4 Hurries 10k below, wingover and dive on them. Meanwhile, a Hurricane squadron that is vectored in by the Dacca radar controller had taken up a position in the stratocumulus and slices right in on the Imperials as they chase the patrol flight....ouila...

A plausible scenario though I doubt Hurricanes would catch diving Tojos before the Tojos engaged the other flight. They would have to be very close to the action at the start.

Regardless, Tojos at 35,000 feet have the initiative to engage or refuse combat against most other fighters. They may not have tactical surprise ("the bounce") but they would certainly have an advantage if they chose to engage.

The A-A model is pretty complex but it doesn't seem to include many aspects that one would think should be a part of it. That's probably why it's so bloody. There should be an advantage given to the higher aircraft when engaging and if surprise is achieved, then a bonus applied.

There is also no routine that prevents a fighter unit from engaging several enemy units operating at grossly different altitudes. In effect, WitP allows the same Zeros at Midway to not only engage the torpedo planes but also smack the dive bombers too. That's because altitude is not used as a discriminator for combat.

That probably a partial explaination for the early Japanese uber CAP and the late Allied uber CAP.

Chez

Before I sent in my Tojos at 35000 feet I sent them in at more normal alt. Say 15k and 20k. But then I noticed that they´re bounced all the time. With all the time I mean not just each day again and again but during this particular battle at one day again and again (do I make myself clear??[&:]). After realizing that I sent them in at 35000 feet because I thought if I come in higher than the defenders can even go then I MUST have an advantage. Now I´m told that alt doesn´t even effect fighter vs fighter combat (and hey, this is a clear wrong if you design an air to air combat model... [8|]).

This seemed completely off to me. Why should my planes in one battle should get bounced 70 times (planes involved perhaps 150). 70 planes bouncing perhaps but it always tells you that a squadron is bouncing another squadron. So if 3rd squadron bounces 2nd daitai and then it bounces 5th daitai that´s 5000 feet higher and so on.... then this seems pretty unrealistic to me. And to repeat it again: this goes on the whole battle. Surprise or alt this isn´t possible in real life.

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

The point of this thread is how can a bouncer "bounce" the bouncee if it can't reach the bouncee's altitude. The game gives a huge advantage to the side that achieves "the bounce" but it seems that "bouncing" in the game does not take altitude into consideration, it just applies a surprise factor.

Chez

I thought the point of this thread was "Looking for trouble with AFB[:@]"

But anyway - the manual does not apparently automatically award the "bounce" to the aircraft higher in altitude.

I´ve chosen this title because I exactly knew that those FB would jump in anyway bitching around. If you read about my situation (perhaps read it???? hmmm???) and then still say "hey, it´s okayyyyy" then I just ignore your further posts so that everyone can calm down...

So who is your human opponent? or is it AI?

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes


I thought the point of this thread was "Looking for trouble with AFB[:@]"

But anyway - the manual does not apparently automatically award the "bounce" to the aircraft higher in altitude.

I´ve chosen this title because I exactly knew that those FB would jump in anyway bitching around. If you read about my situation (perhaps read it???? hmmm???) and then still say "hey, it´s okayyyyy" then I just ignore your further posts so that everyone can calm down...

So who is your human opponent? or is it AI?

If you would read my posts then you would know it... Now everything is clear to me...

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

If you would read my posts then you would know it... Now everything is clear to me...

It was tedious to find (had to read through it several times) - but I see you are playing Przemcio231 - well that rules out the AI cheating .


You are just getting wipped and you haven't figured out how he's doing it.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Kereguelen

"Other than impacting P-39 and P-400 performance, altitude does not impact air to air combat with one exception: aircraft that are reinforcing CAP due to radar contact of the incoming strike may not be able to climb fast enough to engage the incoming bombers."

Isn´t this meant only to simulate the stats of those planes? It might be my English. Altitude doesn´t impact the performance of other planes, no matter if the Hurricane fights at 2000 feet or 20000 feet, it´s performance is always the same. But if there´s something tactical like the bounce alt should impact the battle.

For me this paragraph says that the game simulates the bad performance of the P39 and P400 but all other planes´ performance isn´t effected.

[castor troy]

ORIGINAL: Demosthenes

ORIGINAL: castor troy

If you would read my posts then you would know it... Now everything is clear to me...

It was tedious to find (had to read through it several times) - but I see you are playing Przemcio231 - well that rules out the AI cheating .


You are just getting wipped and you haven't figured out how he's doing it.

"You are just getting wipped and you haven't figured out how he's doing it." [:D][:D]

You are joking aren´t you?

No I´m not getting wiped. As said in another post(you might have overlooked that too [8|]) I´m not complaining about the results as they still favour me. I will say it again for you, I´ve got better planes, better pilots at the moment. BUT I see a difference when I get bounced. And this difference is huge when there will be other planes with better pilots. AND AGAIN: when I see Allied squadrons bouncing and bouncing and bouncing on and on and on in ONE battle then it´s odd to me...

Perhaps it´s not odd to you, you might have a different knowledge of physics, of the game´s code or of history than I. There is a point in a battle of 70 defenders against 150 superior attackers where the defenders aren´t able to bounce anymore.

NO????

[Feinder]

If I were JWilkerson, I’d just take the silly message out, and just leave in “Zero damaged… P-40 destroyed…”, whatever. Then say they fixed the problem.

No messages = No complaints = No problem.

[;)]

-S-

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: castor troy

...

"You are just getting wipped and you haven't figured out how he's doing it." [:D][:D]

You are joking aren´t you?

No I´m not getting wiped.

Then WTF are you complaining and raving like a Madd Man for???

Because you don't like to see the text message come up????

Now I've heard it all -

[denisonh]

[:D]

ORIGINAL: Feinder

If I were JWilkerson, I’d just take the silly message out, and just leave in “Zero damaged… P-40 destroyed…”, whatever. Then say they fixed the problem.

No messages = No complaints = No problem.

[;)]

-S-

[Andy Mac]

Is it possible if altitude is not a determinant in air combat as per above and japanese in these examples are always sweeping one of the biggest allied airbases in India that the reason for the bounce almost always being allied IS actually allied radar giving the surprise/bounce/tactical advantage to the allies in this case over this base.
&nbsp;
My experience is that bounce varies depending on situation but it I dont recall seeing it often when the Japanese attack allied bases or Carriers after mid 42 - it does happen just not often.
&nbsp;
I dont say whether ignoring altitude is right or wrong but is this the plausible explanation for what Castor is seeing.
&nbsp;
Its not a hidden code thing its a device thing
&nbsp;
Andy

[tabpub]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Ex. Tojos puttering along at 35k....sight flight of 4 Hurries 10k below, wingover and dive on them. Meanwhile, a Hurricane squadron that is vectored in by the Dacca radar controller had taken up a position in the stratocumulus and slices right in on the Imperials as they chase the patrol flight....ouila...

A plausible scenario though I doubt Hurricanes would catch diving Tojos before the Tojos engaged the other flight. They would have to be very close to the action at the start.

It was just a "what if" type example; mainly to show that then, as today, planes that are controlled from a remote location have the advantage. Today, as the fighters do not emit radar until the last second, as the controller vectors them; then, as the defending fighters would already know where and when to look for them, while the sweep is relying on just their eyes to pick out the defenders. Hell, you rode in the back with the gear, you are aware of this.....

Regardless, Tojos at 35,000 feet have the initiative to engage or refuse combat against most other fighters. They may not have tactical surprise ("the bounce") but they would certainly have an advantage if they chose to engage.

Well, in the game, they are 99.9% choosing to engage it appears. I don't remember ever seeing a sweep refuse to engage before. And could you imagine the despair that you would hear if they did?
Additionally, the height would only give them the advantage attacking if their location was unknown...."the Hun in the sun"...if you know they are there, you wait for them to commit to the dive...wait...wait....BREAK! BREAK!...now you have a furball. And unless the the Tojos are smart enough to zoom climb out of it, the Hurricane is on virtually equal footing here; these aren't Zeroes.

The A-A model is pretty complex but it doesn't seem to include many aspects that one would think should be a part of it. That's probably why it's so bloody. There should be an advantage given to the higher aircraft when engaging and if surprise is achieved, then a bonus applied.

I don't know the routine at all; I can just say that I have seen most everything. The one thing that is consisent is gun power vs durability. If you hit the target with heavy gunned fighters and defeat the armor, if any, you get a lot of flamers.....

There is also no routine that prevents a fighter unit from engaging several enemy units operating at grossly different altitudes. In effect, WitP allows the same Zeros at Midway to not only engage the torpedo planes but also smack the dive bombers too. That's because altitude is not used as a discriminator for combat.

That probably a partial explaination for the early Japanese uber CAP and the late Allied uber CAP.

Chez

I don't have hard evidence for this, the next time it comes up I will try to document; but I feel that bombers in the same strike package do benefit A to A wise vs. enemy fighters. To me, I have felt that one group usually gets picked on, while the others at differing altitudes get off lighter. I do have a large package scheduled for delivery to AFB Bangkok tomorrow, and I think that I staggered the altitudes there; will check for results if the IJAAF comes up to play.

Well, the CAP thing could use some time/motion studies I think. I have seen it "worn" down sometimes, though most often, not. I wish that you had more tactical "feel" when it comes to the air resolution. Right now, strikes from bases with different distances to target almost invariablely seem to come in at differing times (though an Air HQ in range sometimes will co-ordinate, though not common). I liked the old dice mechanism from either "Flattop" or the Avalanche Press series of games; roll a six sider for each strike targeted against a TF or base, all with same # come in together, with carrier based strikes getting the option to +-1 to the die to link up with other carrier strike orginating from same location. Heck, maybe that's what's going on behind the scenes here anyhow.

[Demosthenes]

You're right, I didn't read every detail (actually the real point didn't sink in until now)
This entire thread is about the fact that even though Castor Troy is winning the Air War - when he attacks Przemcio231 at Dacca (where Prz has base forces with Radar) the Allies get the Air Combat 'Bounce' 99% of the time.

That's all this Hallabaloo is about - air action over one specific base with Radar.

[ChezDaJez]

That's all this Hallabaloo is about - air action over one specific base with Radar.

I guess that explains why Tojos at 35000 ft are getting bounced by Hurricanes. Radar lends magical abilities to aircraft.

Seriously, if a cue came up that said something to the effect that the Tojos were engaging Hurricane squadron A and then being bounced by Hurricane squadron B, I could believe that. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening. A unit should not be able to engage another unit flying at a height higher than they can go, with or without radar.

As far as allied units getting the majority of the bounces, I believe radar does have a hand in it. That's probably the way it should be. But there should be no allied bounce when the Tojos are too high to be reached.

So far, no one has attempted to address that issue except Tadpub and his requires an action similar to what I portrayed in this post.

Chez

[Demosthenes]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

That's all this Hallabaloo is about - air action over one specific base with Radar.

I guess that explains why Tojos at 35000 ft are getting bounced by Hurricanes. Radar lends magical abilities to aircraft.

Seriously, if a cue came up that said something to the effect that the Tojos were engaging Hurricane squadron A and then being bounced by Hurricane squadron B, I could believe that. But that doesn't seem to be what's happening. A unit should not be able to engage another unit flying at a height higher than they can go, with or without radar.

As far as allied units getting the majority of the bounces, I believe radar does have a hand in it. That's probably the way it should be. But there should be no allied bounce when the Tojos are too high to be reached.


Chez

Logically - yes.

But we now understand that Altitude has no meaning in air combat - except for what ground artillery is eligable to shoot at you.

So we have to get that through our heads - forget Altitude for air combat - it doesn't matter (in the game).