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RE: Decades of Development
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:18 pm
by geozero
ORIGINAL: Warfare1
ORIGINAL: geozero
Okay... so since we are dealing with a STRATEGIC level game, perhaps one way to look at the AI issue would be sort of similar to real life military chain of command...
Have several "layers" of AI decision making. Upper most level would make decisions or "orders" to t he lower layer, then that layer would take info and make decisions, and so on... let me explain in layman's terms.
Suppose you play AXIS and the AI opponent is the Allies.
Typically, Germany invades Poland first. The Allied AI upper layer decides to a) declare war, or b) not declare war. IF decision A is made then it orders it's military and production to a war footing (If "B", then Allies remain Pacificst for now). This changes IF Germany declares war on Allies of course... assuming that decision A is taken, the Allied AI now has to look at the Situation... there's no combat yet in Africa, so nothing is done there. But a lower AI layer could decide to A) use bombers to attack Germany, B) have France attack in the West, C) send out the fleet in Search & Destroy missions against Axis subs and surface shipts, etc, etc.
Let's say decision B above is activated, Now a lower level AI decides which French units will attack and which will remain in defensive positions. Which targets present a better attack outcome? An undefended German city? A weaker Axis unit? etc.
That's how AI should work. Yes it takes programming. If, Then, Else commands as noted elsewhere. When enough of these scripts are programmed the opponent will make very good decisions, whether it is what type of production to build, where to attack or defend, when and where to invade, etc. We were programming this kind of stuff way back in the 80's using Basic.
Puts on fire retardant suit...[:D]
Good post.
CEaW is programmed in JAVA. Does that make a different to say, using C++? Forgive me, since I don't know anything about programming.
Does using JAVA mean that things such as "IF, THEN, ELSE" can't be used?
I am not a programmer...but I do know quite a few that are... JAVA is an open source software developed quite some time ago. It builds on modules. Many programmers like it as it can eaqsily be ported to other systems (i.e. MAC, Vista, etc). But it is this feature that also gives it inherent limitations from what I've been told. The modules must be scripted so that ALL systems can understand it.
Can "IF, THEN, ELSE" be programmed into a JAVA based application? I don't know that answer...waiting to hear from a buddy of mine. But I think the answer is no. Or atleast limited... which may explain some issues that can not be programmed.
This may also explain the way the difficulty setting only adjusts production and resources parameters. Fairly easy to do in comparison to a true "thinking" AI. I suppose you could tweak an Uber-Difficult setting where Allies get hundreds of land units and gazillion resources versus the Axis getting zilch. Taking the chess game references here it would be like playing chess with only one pawn against a full opponent set. That's not AI folks.
One last thing...I've always been a proponent of human vs. human play. A human has what I call the "stupid" factor...you know, when you make an obvious blunder of a move and regret it. We've all done it... THAT is the most difficult thing to program an AI to do. To make mistakes or changes in strategy that don't make sense.
Having said that, one reason people moved from board games to computer games was so that they can fire up a game and simply play. It's not always easy or convenient (even in this day and age of internet and PBEM) to find an opponent, let alone a worthy one who doesn't cheat.
Ease of play, good graphics, beautiful map, are all nice...but they don't amount to a $74 game.
RE: Decades of Development
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:33 pm
by Warfare1
ORIGINAL: geozero
ORIGINAL: Warfare1
ORIGINAL: geozero
Okay... so since we are dealing with a STRATEGIC level game, perhaps one way to look at the AI issue would be sort of similar to real life military chain of command...
Have several "layers" of AI decision making. Upper most level would make decisions or "orders" to t he lower layer, then that layer would take info and make decisions, and so on... let me explain in layman's terms.
Suppose you play AXIS and the AI opponent is the Allies.
Typically, Germany invades Poland first. The Allied AI upper layer decides to a) declare war, or b) not declare war. IF decision A is made then it orders it's military and production to a war footing (If "B", then Allies remain Pacificst for now). This changes IF Germany declares war on Allies of course... assuming that decision A is taken, the Allied AI now has to look at the Situation... there's no combat yet in Africa, so nothing is done there. But a lower AI layer could decide to A) use bombers to attack Germany, B) have France attack in the West, C) send out the fleet in Search & Destroy missions against Axis subs and surface shipts, etc, etc.
Let's say decision B above is activated, Now a lower level AI decides which French units will attack and which will remain in defensive positions. Which targets present a better attack outcome? An undefended German city? A weaker Axis unit? etc.
That's how AI should work. Yes it takes programming. If, Then, Else commands as noted elsewhere. When enough of these scripts are programmed the opponent will make very good decisions, whether it is what type of production to build, where to attack or defend, when and where to invade, etc. We were programming this kind of stuff way back in the 80's using Basic.
Puts on fire retardant suit...[:D]
Good post.
CEaW is programmed in JAVA. Does that make a different to say, using C++? Forgive me, since I don't know anything about programming.
Does using JAVA mean that things such as "IF, THEN, ELSE" can't be used?
I am not a programmer...but I do know quite a few that are... JAVA is an open source software developed quite some time ago. It builds on modules. Many programmers like it as it can eaqsily be ported to other systems (i.e. MAC, Vista, etc). But it is this feature that also gives it inherent limitations from what I've been told. The modules must be scripted so that ALL systems can understand it.
Can "IF, THEN, ELSE" be programmed into a JAVA based application? I don't know that answer...waiting to hear from a buddy of mine. But I think the answer is no. Or atleast limited... which may explain some issues that can not be programmed.
This may also explain the way the difficulty setting only adjusts production and resources parameters. Fairly easy to do in comparison to a true "thinking" AI. I suppose you could tweak an Uber-Difficult setting where Allies get hundreds of land units and gazillion resources versus the Axis getting zilch. Taking the chess game references here it would be like playing chess with only one pawn against a full opponent set. That's not AI folks.
One last thing...I've always been a proponent of human vs. human play. A human has what I call the "stupid" factor...you know, when you make an obvious blunder of a move and regret it. We've all done it... THAT is the most difficult thing to program an AI to do. To make mistakes or changes in strategy that don't make sense.
Having said that, one reason people moved from board games to computer games was so that they can fire up a game and simply play. It's not always easy or convenient (even in this day and age of internet and PBEM) to find an opponent, let alone a worthy one who doesn't cheat.
Ease of play, good graphics, beautiful map, are all nice...but they don't amount to a $74 game.
Interesting post. Thanks for the reply.
Pity about JAVA. I would definitely like to learn more about it, so when your buddy responds to your questions, would greatly appreciate you letting us know.
It would be a pity if "IF, THEN, ELSE" can't be used in this game. I see so many easy solutions to some of the problems being encountered that I shake my head in dismay.
I think some of the problems in some current games may be due to the programming language, OS, and huge graphic limits.
For example, let's compare Civ2 to Civ3 or Civ4. In Civ2 the gamer could tweak almost every aspect of the game. The programming was sheer brilliance in itself for allowing the game to be so flexible and mod-friendly.
In contrast, not as many parameters in Civ3 or Civ4 can be tweaked.
RE: Decades of Development
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:39 pm
by geozero
Hey I'm a game junkie. Civ games have become a sham. Civ 4 in particular is a lousy game, can easily be played in one sitting...great graphics, poor game play...
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:39 pm
by Erik Rutins
ORIGINAL: targul
Own the game and have played it. AI is absmal as is game. I regrettfully bought that pig while waiting for HOI2 since they released it a couple days prior. All of Grigsby stuff is ameturish but this was one of his worst. I swore not to buy his stuff before WAW's release and again I bought the oh this one works. Hopefully I will never again make such a horrible and disappointing mistake.
Well, fortunately a lot of folks disagree with you on that, sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy it though. I'm honestly mystified that you'd consider that AI abysmal or amateurish, but these are subjective things. Hopefully the original poster will reply as well.
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:12 pm
by Warfare1
ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
ORIGINAL: targul
Own the game and have played it. AI is absmal as is game. I regrettfully bought that pig while waiting for HOI2 since they released it a couple days prior. All of Grigsby stuff is ameturish but this was one of his worst. I swore not to buy his stuff before WAW's release and again I bought the oh this one works. Hopefully I will never again make such a horrible and disappointing mistake.
Well, fortunately a lot of folks disagree with you on that, sorry to hear that you didn't enjoy it though. I'm honestly mystified that you'd consider that AI abysmal or amateurish, but these are subjective things. Hopefully the original poster will reply as well.
I have been following the GGWAW forum for some time, and I haven't heard any complaints about the AI.
Currently, talk now is about tweaking the end game (especially for Japan - when it surrenders).
I also think GG games are anything but amateurish - UV for example.
I had GGWAW earmarked for purchase, but I would like to know why the AI in WAW is bad.
RE: Decades of Development
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:22 pm
by Warfare1
ORIGINAL: geozero
Hey I'm a game junkie. Civ games have become a sham. Civ 4 in particular is a lousy game, can easily be played in one sitting...great graphics, poor game play...
I love games too - especially history/strategy games.
I think the increased computer requirements, OS and programming languages must have a lot to do with why some current games cannot do what previous (even DOS) games could do.
I think it may be less that developers cannot do something, then it is more like they are unable to it (given the game's parameters).
RE: Decades of Development
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:34 pm
by geozero
ORIGINAL: Warfare1
ORIGINAL: geozero
Hey I'm a game junkie. Civ games have become a sham. Civ 4 in particular is a lousy game, can easily be played in one sitting...great graphics, poor game play...
I love games too - especially history/strategy games.
I think the increased computer requirements, OS and programming languages must have a lot to do with why some current games cannot do what previous (even DOS) games could do.
I think it may be less that developers cannot do something, then it is more like they are unable to it (given the game's parameters).
A lot of the big game companies are following proven consumer selling formulas... they also put out a lot of remakes of an old game idea... sometimes they get feedback from boards. Sometimes there's stockholders and board of directors putting pressure on them.
Whatever the case is, I don't think current graphics and OS requirements are what is causing them to put out dull games. If they came out with CIV 5 you and I would go out and buy it. Why? Well, basically three reasons: 1) we loved the whole empire building sim aspect, 2) we probably agree that we hated the last version and hope that they fixed it in the current one, and 3) it's good entertainment considering the lack of really good original titles.
The DEVs know this and so you will eventually see CIV 5, 6, etc.
Some companies rather put out single original games (like Matrix). They are brave in putting out new games and concepts, many times from smaller DEV's. The flip side is that there is limited ongoing support. Example: Will we ever see War In The Pacific 2? I'd love to see that whole game engine and map redone (maybe at 1 hex = 10 miles)...yes it would be HUGE. And also better develop the land warfare side ot it... but that's another story and another thread...[:D]
RE: Decades of Development
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 8:41 pm
by Warfare1
ORIGINAL: geozero
ORIGINAL: Warfare1
ORIGINAL: geozero
Hey I'm a game junkie. Civ games have become a sham. Civ 4 in particular is a lousy game, can easily be played in one sitting...great graphics, poor game play...
I love games too - especially history/strategy games.
I think the increased computer requirements, OS and programming languages must have a lot to do with why some current games cannot do what previous (even DOS) games could do.
I think it may be less that developers cannot do something, then it is more like they are unable to it (given the game's parameters).
A lot of the big game companies are following proven consumer selling formulas... they also put out a lot of remakes of an old game idea... sometimes they get feedback from boards. Sometimes there's stockholders and board of directors putting pressure on them.
Whatever the case is, I don't think current graphics and OS requirements are what is causing them to put out dull games. If they came out with CIV 5 you and I would go out and buy it. Why? Well, basically three reasons: 1) we loved the whole empire building sim aspect, 2) we probably agree that we hated the last version and hope that they fixed it in the current one, and 3) it's good entertainment considering the lack of really good original titles.
The DEVs know this and so you will eventually see CIV 5, 6, etc.
Some companies rather put out single original games (like Matrix). They are brave in putting out new games and concepts, many times from smaller DEV's. The flip side is that there is limited ongoing support. Example: Will we ever see War In The Pacific 2? I'd love to see that whole game engine and map redone (maybe at 1 hex = 10 miles)...yes it would be HUGE. And also better develop the land warfare side ot it... but that's another story and another thread...[:D]
You may be right. I also notice that the gaming consoles have taken over the gaming retail stores - all graphic games.
heh - I understand that WiTP burned out GG - I don't think he would revisit that monster ever again...
On the other hand UV is getting a revisit in the form of more in-depth carrier-based game play. I'm looking forward to that one.
RE: Decades of Development
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:06 pm
by geozero
I understand that WiTP burned out GG - I don't think he would revisit that monster ever again
maybe it's time to hand over the reigns to someone else, or form a new group to re-design it. I understand the need to preserve ownership and copyright, I just don't understand how a successful game like WitP ends up being abandoned. [:(]
As for console games...it's what I call the "twitch" factor. These 4-5 year olds have faster finger reflexes than mankind has ever seen. Perhaps it's a secret Government development program of some future unmanned combat recruitment...[:D] okay, I've been reading too many spy novels...
Kids (even into their early twenties) these days don't even know who fought WW2. I've heard responses like "yeah we really beat the Chinese", or when asked who the Nazi's were I've heard "yeah, those zombie bad guys...cool!)... pathetic.
But I don't see why we can't combine some cerebral games with modern graphics... which explained the hugely successful Panzer General franchise.
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Sat Jun 30, 2007 9:34 pm
by targul
Have to be honest here. I havent played that game since the second or third day after I bought it. I really cant remember all its faults. I do remember the AI was childish and I beat it first game without even trying. Game looks and acts like Axis and Allies which is a game I really like but I would much rather play Axis & Allies.
Only descent game that man did was War in the Pacific and I must admit that is done really well. But it is so slow it was impossible to find anyone to play against.
The game is still on my computer as a reminder to not buy trash. Wish I actually had the common sense to abide by that but I am a fanatic about wargames and buy almost everything on WWII that is strategic.
RE: Decades of Development
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 12:30 am
by decaro
I suspect companies redo old, proven games for the same reason the film industry keeps making remakes and sequels/prequels; it costs too much $ today to invest in an unproven commodity.
PG was great in its day; I had a book that detailed it's scenario decision tree progress, i.e, total/minor victories, defeat, and where they all led the player to. But today the scenario decision tree approach wouldn't work for multi-player mode, and the simplistic graphics were time-consuming, which brings me to WitP.
Although I only have UV, the longer the game goes on, the longer the time required between turns, esp. for WitP. I think I would die of old age before I ever finished a WitP PBEM.
RE: Decades of Development
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 1:29 am
by Lincolns Mullet
ORIGINAL: geozero
As for console games...it's what I call the "twitch" factor. These 4-5 year olds have faster finger reflexes than mankind has ever seen.
You'd be surprised. My 56 yr old dad plays CoD3 for the 360 maybe 4-5 hours a night and is ranked in the top 5% of the players right now. I play online with him from time to time but I just end up getting my arse kicked.
I'm 28 and prefer the slower wargames these days. [:D]
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 7:47 am
by Charles2222
ORIGINAL: targul
Have to be honest here. I havent played that game since the second or third day after I bought it. I really cant remember all its faults. I do remember the AI was childish and I beat it first game without even trying. Game looks and acts like Axis and Allies which is a game I really like but I would much rather play Axis & Allies.
Only descent game that man did was War in the Pacific and I must admit that is done really well. But it is so slow it was impossible to find anyone to play against.
The game is still on my computer as a reminder to not buy trash. Wish I actually had the common sense to abide by that but I am a fanatic about wargames and buy almost everything on WWII that is strategic.
I agree with you to some extent. I think GGWAW was a childish game, but I was perceptive enough to realize that before buying it. Seasonal turns don't cut it, I don't care how good it might be otherwise. But then, it was probably made more, as a less serious game of his. I actually find WITP more of a childish game instead. Childish isn't really a good term for it though, but just too neglected, as it has such an immensity wrong with it, and Gary made so many good ones in the past, I just can't believe this one got to be so sloppy without neglect.
Anyway, though playing it now may not meet with approval, I always enjoyed the living daylights out of GG's WIR, as my all-time favorite game. I also liked USAAF (definitely too old to play that) and "would" had liked it's successor BTR if it hadn't been for a bug that made the whole game a massive joke IMO (which the people have said they will not fix on the new version). That's what gets some of us guys, that we can see some brilliance from GG such as most of the dogfighting in USAAF and BTR, but then see the same thing go totally nuts in WITP. I think even PacWar had the dogfighting correct.
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:22 am
by Pocus
As Dinsdale says, the barriers to do a better AI are mostly economics, at the level the AI are in wargaming, which is in my humble opinion rather low (and I include the games I coded here). Why, because most if not all the wargaming companies have tight resources when it comes to developement time. To give an example, if I can spend 20% of the week on AI, I'm very satisfied. It means one day of work from a single person in improving a very complex and intricate system. I'm constantly frustrated by what the AI can't do, because I know that I only need time to improve it, time I have not in enough quantity.
Now, if you jail me (or another garage developer are we are all in this niche) 6 months in a monastery doing only AI improvements, I'm sure we would have improved the AI by an order of magnitude, meaning we would pose a serious challenge to 75%-90% of the players around. There is so much room for improvements, without using excuses like "we need the level of expertise used by Big Blue scientists".
Last note, I would like to say that Panther Games has the best AI around, and we know why. Because Arjuna spend years to improve it.
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:54 am
by decaro
I think mandatory monastery time would be good for developers; look what a monk named Lopez did for gaming theory back in 1561! European programmers know this algorithm as the Spanish game.
W/o giving away any trade secrets, in general, how does one improve AI, or does that vary w/the individual game?
As I posted before, BoA reminds me of my Kasporov chess computer; the more time you give it, the more possibilities it can search, so the better its choices. But it also has a selective search -- as opposed to a brute force -- algorithm to save some time. Otherwise, it would be "thinking" forever; like waiting for a turn to end in WitP.
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:36 pm
by geozero
Many of these games are developed by one or two people who have a passion for gaming. As a result they have finite resources, knowledge, and most importantly time to fully develop them. It is much easier to develop a game designed for PBEM these days, as a lot of that code is fairly accessible, being able to TCP/IP, etc. But AI, well that's something else.
If a large game developer (EA, Midway, etc) were to design a new wargame they would likely have dozens of people working on it. While this may never happen for financial reasons, it still leaves a void in this genre of gaming.
I just don't understand why several developers and/or programmers can't join forces to develop games together rather than individually. Wouldn't that make more sense?
I've used programmers for various non-gaming projects from all over the world (guru(dot)com). And there's always new college grads waiting to get into programming. Maybe you think there's no money to pay for all these people, but you'd be surprised how many might be willing to give time for free. It's called being an intern.
All I'm saying is that most people defending the poor AI we see today in games is due to small dev companies or single programmers...hog wash. Imagine if AH or SPI had put out board wargames WITHOUT all the counters or the boards??? That's what we're getting here these days.
I say... programmers UNITE![:D]
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 5:51 pm
by decaro
I just don't understand why several developers and/or programmers can't join forces to develop games together rather than individually. Wouldn't that make more sense?
Too many cooks?
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 6:19 pm
by IrishGuards
Did someone say Battlefeild .. Did I hear that correctly .. [:D]
BGG .. TSS ... WV .. [X(]
IDG
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Sun Jul 01, 2007 11:22 pm
by Laryngoscope
ORIGINAL: geozero
All I'm saying is that most people defending the poor AI we see today in games is due to small dev companies or single programmers...hog wash.
This cracked me up especially in light of...
ORIGINAL: geozero
Can "IF, THEN, ELSE" be programmed into a JAVA based application? I don't know that answer...waiting to hear from a buddy of mine. But I think the answer is no. Or atleast limited... which may explain some issues that can not be programmed.
and...
ORIGINAL: geozero
I just don't understand why several developers and/or programmers can't join forces to develop games together rather than individually. Wouldn't that make more sense?
Just hilarious [:D]
Reminds me of an old GF who when asked "What is a computer?" responded, "A typewriter that talks back!"
At least she knew enough not to argue an advanced technical point founded on a vacuum of ignorance.
ORIGINAL: Pocus
Last note, I would like to say that Panther Games has the best AI around, and we know why. Because Arjuna spend years to improve it.
Agreed. Brad Wardell and SSG also do a reasonable job with comparable game design complexity.
RE: AI Development and Our Hobby
Posted: Mon Jul 02, 2007 6:30 am
by Marc von Martial
ORIGINAL: geozero
from all over the world (guru(dot)com).
+
you'd be surprised how many might be willing to give time for free. It's called being an intern.
Yeah, that fits [8|]