Matrix Games Forums

Howdy,

AGSI, and not the beta test volunteers for Harpoon, is responsible for what we release. We will always rely on and appreciate the input we get from our beta testers. I just want to reiterate that now as anything else is misleading or wrong.

A work around for dumb bombs is not necessary as a new build was delivered to Matrix Games. They are vetting it now and should release it to the private downloads section on their member list feature. The build also includes fixes to several other issues which we'll cover on release.

Discussion of new game mechanics is always welcome.

Thanks,

AGSI, and not the beta test volunteers for Harpoon, is responsible for what we release.

Thank you Russel. That was very much appreciated.

I've been thinking a lot about this thread... I think part of Harpoon's attraction is the emotional factor. And I have been guilty of anger in this thread. So here's a sober reflection on an earlier point, to try to make amends;-

ORIGINAL: Taitennek

Darren,

Why not simply allow Herman to place comments on this forum...[&:]

As I said earlier, it is not Herman's personal battle: Not at all: we [customers] expect a decent product for our money.
It is AGSI/MATRIX that runs away for some real game discussions, by banning people because they ask the questions and dare to critisize the so called improvements.

Cheers,
Frans.

Menheer, I cannot pretend to know either of you or Herman except by reputation. However, as far as I am aware Herman is "unpopular" is because of his emotional comments towards others and his less than professional behaviour in respecting other people's rights. Never mind a list what exactly.

I must make it clear I do not represent Matrix, AGSI or anyone else but myself in posting these opiniated, advisory comments of my own.

However, Herman has been of a small assistance in helping me with a DB issue on civilian casualties by way of a proxy, so I feel the need to reciprocate something on this subject;-

There are at least 3 things Herman could do. I cannot give any assurance of reinstatement for any of his former roles, but without doing at least these 3 things he's got no chance of regaining any sort of popularity, in my opinion;-

1) Admit that he has passed other people's work off as his own and apologise for the fact. Which Harpoon forum this occurs on is not an issue. Some may regards that as an optional step. At the end of day Herman has to admit this at least to himself, irrespective of his own input into Harpoon.

ORIGINAL: Taitennek
As I said earlier, it is not Herman's personal battle: Not at all: we [customers] expect a decent product for our money.

2) Redo all sonar, radar, IR and visual signatures in the Players DB so that they conform to a standard. Whether it's the standard HP signatures or one of his own invention, mixing and matching several different methods has resulted in an inconsistent database that does no good to anyone using it. If you are a user of the Players DB, then it is your own best interest for this to happen.

3) Ruthlessly weed out all plagiarised scenarios offered for use with PDB, except those where the original scenario author has given permission for them to be used by PDB.

If Herman behaves like a responsible, mature adult, then it is more likely he will be treated as such.

Otherwise, if he continues to behave as a plagiariser, it is a certainty he will continue to be treated as a pariah.

I don't want to sound pompous. I am not saying I am better or worse than any other Harpoon player. In fact I have done very little that is visible for Harpoon.

But Respect is not given. It is earned.

And it is doubly hard to earn after it has been lost.

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

Menheer, I cannot pretend to know either of you or Herman except by reputation. However, as far as I am aware Herman is "unpopular" is because of his emotional comments towards others and his less than professional behaviour in respecting other people's rights. Never mind a list what exactly.

Me? My name is Frans, aka Taitennek. My reputation? huh? [:D].

Now a small lesson Dutch Grammar....

It is not "menheer" but "mijnheer" or just "heer".
Besides that, it sounds a bit negative in the context of your reply.

For the other issues: I should say: ask him!

I must make it clear I do not represent Matrix, AGSI or anyone else but myself in posting these opiniated, advisory comments of my own.

Thanks for sharing it with the community

Well then Frans, how can I ask him when he can't post here... and anyway, I'm not asking Herman to do anything.
 
You asked why he was an outcast. I pointed out that Herman's status is of his own making, and suggested a remedy.
 
It was not a request. It was a possible solution to a point you asked.
 
Arguing about these issues isn't the point of the thread.

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

You asked why he was an outcast. I pointed out that Herman's status is of his own making, and suggested a remedy.

Sure you did. Thanks again for sharing your opinion with the community

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers
You asked why he was an outcast. I pointed out that Herman's status is of his own making, and suggested a remedy.

More to the point, it was an interesting lecture about "ethics" that, most unfortunatly, has been posted on a forum where they are finally fixing ANW using Herman's buglist - without even a "thank you". Not the best of places.

Preemption of stupidity 1: I wouldn't put things the "We already knew about these bugs, Herman's list is even incomplete, only at AGSI we know the true extent of the problems" way. It would be an explicit admission that AGSI *knowingly*published an unpolished, untested and bug-ridden product. It would not be a smart move in my book, but mileage for others can vary.

Preemption of stupidity 2: Herman was banned "for a week" in late 2006, almost 18 months ago, for cross-posting - nothing worse than that. Then they I think, simply forgot him out in the yard [8D]

True, there are rumors floating around that he is Fidel Castro, The Devil or even a Pain in the A**. This leads to the FIRST lesson that anyone wishing to partecipate in the Harpoon community should learn: ALWAYS CHECK THE FACTS.

Herman was banned here for a small offence, as explained in the very post by David Heath:
fb.asp?m=1304167

He then never posted again, as a simple search shows:
searchpro.asp?author=hermanhum&forumid=278

So, somehow, I don't think that people can claim a story of "past behaviour" by Herman, at least in the last EIGHTEEN MONTHS. And this is still a forum who is using Herman's work without even the merest of a "thank you", but that somehow is still finding the time for elaborate features about "De Hermani Ethicae" and "remedies". I have nothing against features detailing personal views, and *my* personal view is that this really a very poor place for one to pontificate about "ethicae" - exp. re: Herman.

Double post

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers
You asked why he was an outcast. I pointed out that Herman's status is of his own making, and suggested a remedy.

More to the point, it was an interesting lecture about "ethics" that, most unfortunatly, has been posted on a forum where they are finally fixing ANW using Herman's buglist - without even a "thank you". Not the best of places.

My comments were based on the assumption that Taitennek was in contact with Herman and would relay.

If relay has happened in another manner, good. At least the message got there.

I have looked at PDB closely, using the DB editor. I know it contains elements of other people's radar, sonar and visual models. And that they clash. And as a result PDB is flawed. That is why I rejected it as a development tool.

Ethics on plagiarism aside... If PDB users don't want standardised signatures, they can hardly claim that scenarios they play are consistent. I am sick to death of seeing "another PDB scenario released, it's the best thing since sliced bread" when I know it's not worth the time to download it, let alone play it.

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

Preemption of stupidity 1: I wouldn't put things the "We already knew about these bugs, Herman's list is even incomplete, only at AGSI we know the true extent of the problems" way. It would be an explicit admission that AGSI *knowingly*published an unpolished, untested and bug-ridden product. It would not be a smart move in my book, but mileage for others can vary.

Preemption of stupidity 2: Herman was banned "for a week" in late 2006, almost 18 months ago, for cross-posting - nothing worse than that. Then they I think, simply forgot him out in the yard [8D]

True, there are rumors floating around that he is Fidel Castro, The Devil or even a Pain in the A**. This leads to the FIRST lesson that anyone wishing to partecipate in the Harpoon community should learn: ALWAYS CHECK THE FACTS.

Herman was banned here for a small offence, as explained in the very post by David Heath:
fb.asp?m=1304167

He then never posted again, as a simple search shows:
searchpro.asp?author=hermanhum&forumid=278

Uhuh. Taitennek comes storming in with "let's all love Herman". I then point out why I can't.

And now I get criticized for that.

In case you don't get my sig... I am not employed by AGSI or Matrix. I don't speak for them. What they do and how they do it is their business. If it conflicts with my affairs then I complain. If I find a bug I tell them about it as best I can, using the procedures that they specify.

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta
So, somehow, I don't think that people can claim a story of "past behaviour" by Herman, at least in the last EIGHTEEN MONTHS. And this is still a forum who is using Herman's work without even the merest of a "thank you", but that somehow is still finding the time for elaborate features about "De Hermani Ethicae" and "remedies". I have nothing against features detailing personal views, and *my* personal view is that this really a very poor place for one to pontificate about "ethicae" - exp. re: Herman.

And you have expressed those views very well. They are however missing my point.

PDB is compromised. There has been no effort at all on the part of Herman to remedy it's ethical faults. PDB designers, rather than complain or just plain point out the problem, remain dumbly loyal (dumb in the sense of silence, rather than the sense of stupid).

ANW is compromised. AGSI are doing their best to fix it.

It's probably a lot easier for an outsider like me to see the differnces in behaviour... but can you, as PDB scenario designer and user, see the difference?

And do you plan to do anything about it, apart from criticizing me?

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

I am sick to death of seeing "another PDB scenario released, it's the best thing since sliced bread" when I know it's not worth the time to download it, let alone play it.

Dear Burntfinger

I am a PDB designer (I don't believe I've ever said the above quoted sentence). However if you have any specific feedback on my scenario's then feel free to let me know.
Of course if you'll point me to where I can download and test your database and scenario's, I'll be happy to return the favour.

Freek

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers
My comments were based on the assumption that Taitennek was in contact with Herman and would relay.

If relay has happened in another manner, good. At least the message got there.

Which is an interesting statement. Herman can be reached on Gamesquad, Subsim, the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical newsgroup, even privately via e-mail - why should you lean to "someone to relay thing to Herman"? If you have something to say to him, just do that.

I have looked at PDB closely, using the DB editor. I know it contains elements of other people's radar, sonar and visual models. And that they clash. And as a result PDB is flawed. That is why I rejected it as a development tool.

I'm not following you, here: PDb is based on some earlier DBs - all recognized in the credits and all used after getting permission from the original complilers. This for the part regarding "plagiarism". Regarding "other people's radar, sonar and visual models" - how can they clash? Exp. they do clash with... what? Where the "other people's" models clashing with something, too? If so, with what? What is, in your opinion, "flawed" in PDb that should be corrected?

Exactly.

And, again, the best way to get a clarification and a direct answer would still be contacting Herman directly. Nothing prevents anyone from doing that, and Herman usually answers to all doubts - and even implements corrections if something genuinely flawed is pointed to him.

Ethics on plagiarism aside... If PDB users don't want standardised signatures, they can hardly claim that scenarios they play are consistent. I am sick to death of seeing "another PDB scenario released, it's the best thing since sliced bread" when I know it's not worth the time to download it, let alone play it.

Well, PDb scenarios could be published with the line "Please, we are poor people, our children are starving, we have no solace in our lives, except for the occasional scenario we publish. We know that our scenarios suck, but, please, say that you enjoy them anyway, so our children can find a little bit of happines while surfing the internet". But it would be, IMHO, surreal, not to mention false, since, AFAIK, PDb users are not starving.

However, I still fail to see where a PDb scenario creator defined "his work the best thing since siliced bread" - beyond the usual enthusiasm that surrounds any new Mod/scenario announcment for any game. Could you point us a specific link where this happened?

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

Preemption of stupidity 1: I wouldn't put things the "We already knew about these bugs, Herman's list is even incomplete, only at AGSI we know the true extent of the problems" way. It would be an explicit admission that AGSI *knowingly*published an unpolished, untested and bug-ridden product. It would not be a smart move in my book, but mileage for others can vary.

Preemption of stupidity 2: Herman was banned "for a week" in late 2006, almost 18 months ago, for cross-posting - nothing worse than that. Then they I think, simply forgot him out in the yard [8D]

True, there are rumors floating around that he is Fidel Castro, The Devil or even a Pain in the A**. This leads to the FIRST lesson that anyone wishing to partecipate in the Harpoon community should learn: ALWAYS CHECK THE FACTS.

Herman was banned here for a small offence, as explained in the very post by David Heath:
fb.asp?m=1304167

He then never posted again, as a simple search shows:
searchpro.asp?author=hermanhum&forumid=278

Uhuh. Taitennek comes storming in with "let's all love Herman". I then point out why I can't.

And now I get criticized for that.

More appropriately, again, I wonder if your "unability to" is based on facts or on "rumors". If it is based on tangible facts, please, point us to them - with quotes and links. If it is based on rumors, "things you have heard", innuendos, "general consensus" etc. - I can only point you - again - to how, in words, Herman is still the worst part of Michael Moore rolled with the worst part of Ann Coulter, while, *at the same time*, in facts, his buglist is used to finally make a serious attempt to fix the game. There is no need, IMHO, to go beyond this.

In case you don't get my sig... I am not employed by AGSI or Matrix. I don't speak for them. What they do and how they do it is their business. If it conflicts with my affairs then I complain. If I find a bug I tell them about it as best I can, using the procedures that they specify.

Good. Just, do not overdo this - you could find yourself blacklisted if your bug list becomes too long [;)]

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta
So, somehow, I don't think that people can claim a story of "past behaviour" by Herman, at least in the last EIGHTEEN MONTHS. And this is still a forum who is using Herman's work without even the merest of a "thank you", but that somehow is still finding the time for elaborate features about "De Hermani Ethicae" and "remedies". I have nothing against features detailing personal views, and *my* personal view is that this really a very poor place for one to pontificate about "ethicae" - exp. re: Herman.

And you have expressed those views very well. They are however missing my point.

PDB is compromised.

How? *Exactly*.

There has been no effort at all on the part of Herman to remedy it's ethical faults.

Which "ethical faults"? Exactly. With links and references.

PDB designers, rather than complain or just plain point out the problem, remain dumbly loyal (dumb in the sense of silence, rather than the sense of stupid).

PDb designers point out both problems with the ANW core program *and* with PDb. Which problems you do feel are not pointed out enough? Exactly.

ANW is compromised. AGSI are doing their best to fix it.

Since a couple of weeks, using Herman's work, too. Not bad for some one of the kind you do seem he belongs to.

It's probably a lot easier for an outsider like me to see the differnces in behaviour... but can you, as PDB scenario designer and user, see the difference?

And do you plan to do anything about it, apart from criticizing me?

Yes: for example, I can point out of this "you (blah blah) while I/us (blah blah)" is a way to arbitrarily divide the community, again, in factions of "us vs. you". Actually, *WE* are doing our best to fix the game, heal the community, produce free third party add-ons (never forget about this: everybody does it for pleasure and for sharing such pleasure (since nobody gains anything, except slander and disparaging), work around the bugs, provide the opportunity for enjoyable MP experiences, and space to host DBs and scenarios (HarPlonk is open to anyone asking for it - for free).

And you. What are you doing for the game, apart from giving lectures about ethics without good, supporting foundaments, and at the same time fail to accept criticism?

ORIGINAL: FreekS

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

I am sick to death of seeing "another PDB scenario released, it's the best thing since sliced bread" when I know it's not worth the time to download it, let alone play it.

Vind jij dat ook niet uiterst irritant? dat gezeur over PDB?
Ben je bezig met scn-design, heb je heel veel uitdagende scn geschreven, gaan ze je werk lopen afzeiken.

Het zijn toch wel een stelletje eikels nah?[:D]

De Heer Schepers,

My database and scenario is still under construction and has not yet been released for public consumption.

Once it has completed testing and been proven to work, I will be sure to forward it to you.

I am unfamiliar with any PDB scenario, so I cannot comment on any individual scenario.

However, I reiterate that my complaint is with the compromised signatures within the PDB itself.

"You cannot build a house on sand."

(actually, the Dutch do this all the time. Same method as the Venetians, they drive piles into the sand and build on that. But I'm sure you understand my metaphor.)

Signor Beretta,

You have not answered my question on what exactly YOU personally are doing to help further ANW. Without an answer from you I feel no obligation to answer your questions.

De Heer Taitannek,

Engels, alstublijft.

Signor Beretta,

You have not answered my question on what exactly YOU personally are doing to help further ANW. Without an answer from you I feel no obligation to answer your questions.

That's easy. I worked and still work to find, reproduce and confirm bugs in the engine since well before "Harpoon 3" was a Matrix product - but was supported by the twin efforts of Jesse Spears and HarpoonHQ. I contributed to DB2000 when it was the main third-party Db for the game. I strive to help not only Herman but whoever would desire to mantain a complete and open buglist, with workarounds where possibile, so that new players and AGSI can be aware of the issues (fact is: just now Herman is the only third-party willing to do it).

I do own (and I'm the only one who pays for) a site, www.harplonkhq.com, where everybody can post his own scenarios and databases for any version of Harpoon for free - by just only asking me permission to do so (if you wish I can tell you the story behind the humorous name).

I did discover the problems with the way DB2000 was maintained by his author - problems that led to the need to create a new third party Database from scratch:
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23874
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23949

I wrote a preview of ANW for "The Armchair General" so to raise awareness about the product when it was about to be published by Matrix Games
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/preview- ... arfare.htm

I'm a professional reviewer, in Italy, and I wrote about the Harpoon line both in our monthly magazine and in our Strategy special issues. I could post the scans, if you wish.

And, generally speaking, I do my best, both publicly and privately to separate unuseful "rumors, slander, badmouthing" etc. from *facts* in the Harpoon community - since, historically, there had been too much of the formers, and too little of the latter.

All of the above it is not - I wish to stress it - for self-promotion or anything. I just happen to like the game - were it in a decent state. And all the info I gave to you would have been readily available with a Google search and/or a search on these Forums.

This is for what regards your inquiry. Now, can I be gratified by some answers to mine? For example, I find interesting this statement of yours

"I am unfamiliar with any PDB scenario, so I cannot comment on any individual scenario.

However, I reiterate that my complaint is with the compromised signatures within the PDB itself. "

How can you reach this conclusion, given the former admission? Exactly.

Oh, and, BTW, if your "complaint" reallly coincerns you, you still have the opportunity to reach Herman on the places he usually frequents - including, now that I think about them:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/ScenShare/
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FilesOfScenShare/

Two mailing lists created *exactly* with the aim to help people to better enjoy the game, get advice for creating scenarios, reporting bugs (and getting workarounds) and reporting problems with various databases. I think you will find that Herman is more than ready to answer personally to any doubts you can have regarding HIS work for the community, should you contact him on any forum and usenet Newsgroup he posts to (like, as I already have pointed out, Gamesquad, Subsim, HarplonHQ and the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical newsgroup). At least it would be, IMHO, a better way to get answers than relying on "messengers": talking directly "face-to-face", so to speak.

When I first got Harpoon and had specific questions, the person I found to be the most knowledgable and the most helpful was Herman.  I was very surprised when he was banned because I felt he was an asset to the community and the game.

ORIGINAL: Vincenzo Beretta

Signor Beretta,

You have not answered my question on what exactly YOU personally are doing to help further ANW. Without an answer from you I feel no obligation to answer your questions.

That's easy. I worked and still work to find, reproduce and confirm bugs in the engine since well before "Harpoon 3" was a Matrix product - but was supported by the twin efforts of Jesse Spears and HarpoonHQ. I contributed to DB2000 when it was the main third-party Db for the game. I strive to help not only Herman but whoever would desire to mantain a complete and open buglist, with workarounds where possibile, so that new players and AGSI can be aware of the issues (fact is: just now Herman is the only third-party willing to do it).

I do own (and I'm the only one who pays for) a site, www.harplonkhq.com, where everybody can post his own scenarios and databases for any version of Harpoon for free - by just only asking me permission to do so (if you wish I can tell you the story behind the humorous name).

I did discover the problems with the way DB2000 was maintained by his author - problems that led to the need to create a new third party Database from scratch:
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23874
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23949

I wrote a preview of ANW for "The Armchair General" so to raise awareness about the product when it was about to be published by Matrix Games
http://www.armchairgeneral.com/preview- ... arfare.htm

I'm a professional reviewer, in Italy, and I wrote about the Harpoon line both in our monthly magazine and in our Strategy special issues. I could post the scans, if you wish.

And, generally speaking, I do my best, both publicly and privately to separate unuseful "rumors, slander, badmouthing" etc. from *facts* in the Harpoon community - since, historically, there had been too much of the formers, and too little of the latter.

All of the above it is not - I wish to stress it - for self-promotion or anything. I just happen to like the game - were it in a decent state. And all the info I gave to you would have been readily available with a Google search and/or a search on these Forums.

This is for what regards your inquiry. Now, can I be gratified by some answers to mine? For example, I find interesting this statement of yours

"I am unfamiliar with any PDB scenario, so I cannot comment on any individual scenario.

However, I reiterate that my complaint is with the compromised signatures within the PDB itself. "

How can you reach this conclusion, given the former admission? Exactly.

Oh, and, BTW, if your "complaint" reallly coincerns you, you still have the opportunity to reach Herman on the places he usually frequents - including, now that I think about them:

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/ScenShare/
http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/FilesOfScenShare/

Two mailing lists created *exactly* with the aim to help people to better enjoy the game, get advice for creating scenarios, reporting bugs (and getting workarounds) and reporting problems with various databases. I think you will find that Herman is more than ready to answer personally to any doubts you can have regarding HIS work for the community, should you contact him on any forum and usenet Newsgroup he posts to (like, as I already have pointed out, Gamesquad, Subsim, HarplonHQ and the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical newsgroup). At least it would be, IMHO, a better way to get answers than relying on "messengers": talking directly "face-to-face", so to speak.

The more you write, the less you say. Have you actually reported any bug issues to AGSI? 4,000 words and I'm still none the wiser.

FIXING Bugs? AGSI fix the bugs if they get reported. Not me. Not you.

Now, for a few choice excerpts;

I do own (and I'm the only one who pays for) a site, www.harplonkhq.com, where everybody can post his own scenarios and databases for any version of Harpoon for free - by just only asking me permission to do so (if you wish I can tell you the story behind the humorous name).

So you want me to register on a site that you own... thereby revealing my email address.

...given the past record of others who have done so, I will pass thank you.

I did discover the problems with the way DB2000 was maintained by his author - problems that led to the need to create a new third party Database from scratch:
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23874
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23949

A misleading and deceitful statement. The origin of PDB was clearly pointed out to you in this thread. You chose to ignore the evidence right in front of your eyes;-

tm.asp?m=1172277&mpage=2&key=

You also seem to take great pride in causing arguments and confusion;-

http://groups.google.gr/group/comp.sys. ... 2d24afa7f8

I'm a professional reviewer, in Italy, and I wrote about the Harpoon line both in our monthly magazine and in our Strategy special issues. I could post the scans, if you wish.

How delightful. A self confessed critic. Who is so good at it that he still earns his money that way, rather than earning his money from being creative.

Now to clean up a couple misunderstandings;-

Well, PDb scenarios could be published with the line "Please, we are poor people, our children are starving, we have no solace in our lives, except for the occasional scenario we publish. We know that our scenarios suck, but, please, say that you enjoy them anyway, so our children can find a little bit of happines while surfing the internet". But it would be, IMHO, surreal, not to mention false, since, AFAIK, PDb users are not starving.

However, I still fail to see where a PDb scenario creator defined "his work the best thing since siliced bread" - beyond the usual enthusiasm that surrounds any new Mod/scenario announcment for any game. Could you point us a specific link where this happened?

As I cannot afford to buy sliced bread (prices have rise 60% in this area in the past year) I find your first paragraph arrogant, offensive, patronising, and rude if not perhaps moronic.

As for the 2nd paragraph, "It's the best thing since sliced bread" is an English idiom that means "It's an overhyped piece of junk that we can't think of anything else good to say about." I was talking about the hype surrounding the PDB, NOT an individual scenario (English has loose rules on identifying the meaning of "it" in a compound sentence - the subject is not always the first mentioned noun, it can also be the last mentioned noun.

I hope that clarifies my post. I object to claims about PDB being "the best thing since sliced bread", ie "an overhyped piece of junk that we can't think of anything else good to say about". Not the scenarios (although by definition they can't be toooo hot).

More appropriately, again, I wonder if your "unability to" is based on facts or on "rumors". If it is based on tangible facts, please, point us to them - with quotes and links. If it is based on rumors, "things you have heard", innuendos, "general consensus" etc. - I can only point you - again - to how, in words, Herman is still the worst part of Michael Moore rolled with the worst part of Ann Coulter, while, *at the same time*, in facts, his buglist is used to finally make a serious attempt to fix the game. There is no need, IMHO, to go beyond this.

His buglist? He refers to other people's efforts but does not name them. Other people who have been fingered by Herman say it's Hermans. Gee, it's such a good bug list nobody wants to take responsibility for it.

PDb designers point out both problems with the ANW core program *and* with PDb. Which problems you do feel are not pointed out enough? Exactly.

Uhuh. NAME THEM PLEASE. Let's have Herman's little helpers outed. You've already put yourself in that catergory, and indicated "WE" so you are not the only one. Who? Exactly.

Yes: for example, I can point out of this "you (blah blah) while I/us (blah blah)" is a way to arbitrarily divide the community, again, in factions of "us vs. you". Actually, *WE* are doing our best to fix the game, heal the community, produce free third party add-ons (never forget about this: everybody does it for pleasure and for sharing such pleasure (since nobody gains anything, except slander and disparaging), work around the bugs, provide the opportunity for enjoyable MP experiences, and space to host DBs and scenarios (HarPlonk is open to anyone asking for it - for free).

What's this "we" nonsense? You brought that in. I asked YOU personally, just YOU, what you were doing. You haven't fixed any bugs; neither have I. That is the AGSI programmers role and nobody can take that away from them. Did you tell AGSI about these bugs? No you did not.

And you. What are you doing for the game, apart from giving lectures about ethics without good, supporting foundaments, and at the same time fail to accept criticism?

Well, my beta test agreement states that I cannot reveal my own activities as far as fixing bugs go... but I don't hear AGSI complaining about my activities here.

I can give you one concrete example. Page 10 of your "bug list" gives "Ammo Dumps Emptied". The same bug is reported on page 17 (it seems you are not the only one who repeats himself;

So I went through all the ODB scenarios with 3.7, recorded the original munitions types, plane loadouts, ammo dump types, airbases, whether or not a scenario actually had any airbases or ammo dumps, and posted the text files to AGSI. That way whoever gets to fix it is saved the difficulty of switching between 3.9 and 3.7.

Nobody asked me to. This was in addition to my usual beta test activities and had nothing to do with them.

Maybe AGSI already have a corrected version and don't need my work. That's not the point.

I DID SOMETHING TO TRY TO HELP. Not as part of the beta test process. But to demonstrate a commitment.

And you talk about me with the "blah-blah-blah". But is it true you are actually a professional public relations consultant, and so know all about hot air to hide unpleasant facts? This may or may not be true.

But it sure does sound true.

Out of space... Time for a fresh post.

Which is an interesting statement. Herman can be reached on Gamesquad, Subsim, the comp.sys.ibm.pc.games.war-historical newsgroup, even privately via e-mail - why should you lean to "someone to relay thing to Herman"? If you have something to say to him, just do that.

But I like to be
Herman Hum free.
So do Matrix. It's their site. I like it. That's why I post here.
I'm pretty sure he didn't get banned for anything he PUBLICLY posted - rather, for a private communication.

I'm not following you, here: PDb is based on some earlier DBs - all recognized in the credits and all used after getting permission from the original complilers. This for the part regarding "plagiarism". Regarding "other people's radar, sonar and visual models" - how can they clash? Exp. they do clash with... what? Where the "other people's" models clashing with something, too? If so, with what? What is, in your opinion, "flawed" in PDb that should be corrected?
Exactly.

OK. Here are what are in my belief the official signature rules; they may not be, there's no mention of sig rules within the 3.9 documentation. I've left out sonar because then this post will be REALLY mind bending;-
Aircraft Signatures
Fixed-Wing
visual (front/rear): 100*log10(span * height/5)
visual (side): 100*log10(length[fuselage]*height[fuselage]/2)
infra-red: visual(aspect) - 200 + 00/10/30 Turboprop/Subsonic Jets + 10/20/50 Supersonic Jets
radar: visual(front) - 30
Helicopters
visual (front/rear): 100*log10(height[fuselage]*width[fuselage]2)
visual (side): 100*log10(height[fuselage]*width[fuselage]/2)
infra-red: visual(aspect) - 100 + 00/15/15 IR suppressor equipped + 00/30/30 others
radar: visual(front) - 30
Missile Signatures
visual (front/rear): 100*log10(diameter[fuselage]2)
visual (side): 100*log10(length[fuselage]*span[fuselage]/2)
infra-red: visual (aspect) - 100 + 10/20/50 subsonic + 20/40/90 supersonic
radar: visual (front) - 30
Ship Signatures
visual (front/rear): 100*log10(beam*height)
visual(side): 100*log10(length*height/2)
infra-red: visual(front) - 100 + 00//00/00 nuclear + 00/30/30 other
radar: visual(front) - 30
Submarine Signatures
visual(front/rear): 100*log10(beam*height/2)
visual(side): 100*log10(length*height/4)
infra-red: visual(front) - 100 + 00/00/00 nuclear + 00/30/30 other
radar: visual(front) - 30
So, if you know the height, fuselage, and wingspan (plus IR suppressor info) of any aircraft, missile, ship or sub, it's possible to calculate a set of signature values.

Herman hasn't bothered. There are literally hundreds of examples in PDB where the signatures don't match the dimensions. Sometimes the above are used; sometimes, Herman appears to have pulled a value at random out of a hat.

Here are 10 examples of the hundreds on offer;-

CC-130J
Hercules II AUS TRAN
Visual  150 166 150
Thermal   -3   9   14
Radar     179 192 171
Length 40.4 metres, span 41.4 metres.

CASA C-295M VE 07 TRAN
Visual   156 186 156
Thermal   -30  11   0
Radar     120 153 120
Length 21.4 metres, span 25.6 metres

C-5C Galaxy USA TRAN
Visual   215 247 215
Thermal   15  30  45
Radar   185 217 185
Length 30.5 metres, span 28.4 metres

The Hercules has a smaller radar signature from the front as from the back.
The Casa is smaller than the Hercules, but has a higher Visual signature, and a much lower thermal signature from the front as from the back.
The C-5 Galaxy is smaller than a Hercules (!), but has a much higher visual signature.

You think that's strange? Let's try a couple of transport helicopters;-

CH-47SD Chinook SGP TRAN
Visual   136 184 136
Thermal  -64  -34 -34
Radar  106 154 106
Length 25.4 metres, span 15.2 metres

CH-53D Super Stallion USMC TRAN
Visual   159 177 159
Thermal   59  62  62
Radar   129 129 129
Length 22.4 metres, span 27 metres

The Chinook is bigger than a Super Stallion, but has lower signatures.
The Super Stallion has the same thermal signature from the side as the rear. Even stranger, the same radar signature from the side as from the front or rear. The world's first cubic helicopter.

Weapons signatures are similarly inconsistent;-

114mm/45 Twin Mk6 DP
Visual   -198 -117  -198
Thermal  -168  -87  -168
Radar   -198 -117  -198

114mm/45 Vickers Mk 5 DP
Visual             0       0        0
Thermal            0       0        0
Radar              0       0        0
Ah, but it doesn't MATTER for guns. They can't be intercepted. Well, it does and it doesn't... it depends if you have recon aircraft that can spot thermal signatures of the gun firing, like E8 Jstars or Cobra Ball. It also depends if AGSI gives the "Platform XX is firing: Method offboard other" message an off button.

How about missiles then? They're pretty important, and can be hit by other missiles now on 3.9. Let's compare

RIM-66 C SM2MR Block I and Block II.

RIM-66C SM2MR Block I
Visual    77 124 107
Thermal  -98   4 -18
Radar     0  66   -4

RIM-66C SM2MR Block II
Visual   -8 81  22
Thermal  -183  -39  -103
Radar   -68 32  -72


So, the Block I has a front visual signature 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000 times greater than the Block II model. (Logarithimic, exponential; 1 is ten times the size of a 0; 2 is 100 times the size of 0; 3 is 1000 times the size of 0; etc)

And just for curiousity's sake, compare them to AGM-78D (an air launched ARM version of the same weapon);

Visual   -76  37 -76
Thermal  -136 -126 -86
Radar   -76   7  -106

All completely different. You'd think they were different sizes and shapes.

I've saved the best till last... according to PDB, nukes are invisible and you wouldn't even notice one going off if you were stood right next to it.

2000kg [N] 500kT [PRC]
Visual   -32000  -32000  -32000
Thermal  -32000  -32000  -32000
Radar   -32000 -32000  -32000

Are these values inversely exponential (smaller the bigger?).

If they are... plane signatures are even MORE screwed up than previously thought. The C-5C is smaller than a Hercules or a Casa, and airliners are smaller than fighter planes.

This is why I won't use PDB. The signatures are vital for sensor modelling and PDB is inconsistent.

Of course, Herman could work through them all and give the people that like PDB a better DB.

Then again, there's plenty of young bloods out there who will take over if he's not feeling up to it.

Of course, then he will lose control of PDB. (Do I hear the frantic rattling of a keyboard from Canada?)

Should I have just quietly mentioned this to the PDB crowd?
Should the PDB crowd just have told AGSI about the bugs they found without beating their chests and saying "we are God's gift to Harpoon?".

You decide. I'm too busy reporting bugs THE PROPER way to bother with the Pirated Data Base anymore.

Reading back the whole topic, I can conclude 2 things:

• The presentation of the buglist for the patch 3.9.0. turned out in a cheap and inferior plagiarism-discussion about the PlayersDB, complete with the mud-throwing seance [>:].

Thank you Rear-Admiral [Sir? no way! [:D]] Burnt Fingers for sharing your personal opinions about the PDB with the community. We were all waiting for that. This topic is about the Update of ANW 3.9.0. and not about the PDB; I suggest that you stop collecting glasses because you are at least drunk, or get some sleep to get soper again and concentrate about the topic, the patch 3.9.0.

• It is at least sad that "RA" Burnt Fingers is getting bit personal and playing fool with the integrity of persons, I suggest that you held your personal coloured talks within the SS Nostromus section of Harplonk forum. Dr. Harplonkadonk is willing to invite you for a consult.......

In your post # 56 you whish to go on reporting bugs in a proper way and not bother anymore with PDB.
Does this mean that you from now on only report your bugs and stop criticizing the PlayersDB? That would be great!!!

Meet you on the SS Nostrumus! Lots of glasses to collect overthere  you get drunk in no time
......and there is a MD available [Dr. Harplonkadonk]  [:D]....

Btw. I now speak for myself



TAITENNEK 

It takes two to tango... Or more.

ORIGINAL: BurntFingers

The more you write, the less you say.

This is good news for my carpal tunnel syndrome [:D]

Have you actually reported any bug issues to AGSI? 4,000 words and I'm still none the wiser.

I reported bugs to HarpoonHQ and Jesse Spears back in the days (I'm still proud to have been the one who nailed down the problems with local time and GMT, and when the AtA refueling bug happened). I now contribute to the buglist kept by Herman (the one, you know, that they are using in this very moment to finally fix the products). I find bugs, confirm bugs found by others... the problem with the "Boomerang ECM", for example ( http://tinyurl.com/2u4o86 ), was found by me.

Of course we have decided to keep a main buglist, where all the findings are kept together, so to avoid overlapping (a problem, back in the days). I called it "Herman's buglist" just because he started it and he is still the main bug-chaser among those who contribute (however, Herman has never called it "His" list. After all, the real owners of the bugs are AGSI [;)] )

Did I already mentioned that it is by using this buglist that AGSI is now doing its best effort yet to fix the game? [:)]

Now, for a few choice excerpts;

I do own (and I'm the only one who pays for) a site, www.harplonkhq.com, where everybody can post his own scenarios and databases for any version of Harpoon for free - by just only asking me permission to do so (if you wish I can tell you the story behind the humorous name).

So you want me to register on a site that you own... thereby revealing my email address.

...given the past record of others who have done so, I will pass thank you.

I'm not following you: you do not need to register. Just ask for a space for your scenarios and DBs for Harpoon to be kept, and I'll provide it. Then you can have links and everything for people who want to download them. You can create an eMail address on GMail, or Hotmail, or whatever and manage this from an Internet Cafe, like Jason Bourne. So... where would the problem be?

I did discover the problems with the way DB2000 was maintained by his author - problems that led to the need to create a new third party Database from scratch:
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23874
http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23949

A misleading and deceitful statement. The origin of PDB was clearly pointed out to you in this thread. You chose to ignore the evidence right in front of your eyes;-

tm.asp?m=1172277&mpage=2&key=

I usually choose to ignore "evidence" (for the lack of a better word) when not supported by facts. And, it has already been de-bunked ( fb.asp?m=1179186 ). Next myth, please. [:)]

You also seem to take great pride in causing arguments and confusion;-

http://groups.google.gr/group/comp.sys. ... 2d24afa7f8

True: I have no problems to start flamewars for what I feel are rightful causes - in that case an abnormal level of self-importance that was about to border on mobbing, to which I answered with the banner which is now HarplonkHQ's official banner. BTW, this is a way of life on the war-historical NG where, you know, you can't be banned or having your posts deleted for expressng your opinions (like it happens or happened on some "forums"...)

(For other examples of my inclination to "cause arguments and confusion", take a look to my current "sensibilization campaign" towards bugfixing in ANW:)

[center] [/center]

[center][Click on the thumbnails for a bigger image][/center]

Now, however, let's make some interesting observations about the link you posted. As anyone clicking on it can see, it is found using the Greek version of Google. This is the second time that my statement (behind which I stand, I'm still proud about *that one* [8D] ) is being used here trying to prove whatever. The first time was, lo and behold, by a Greek, a certain Mr. Dimitris Dandris, AkA Sunburn, from HarpoonHQ.

So, the possibilities are:

1 - You are that Greek
2 - You are Greek
3 - You needed to go around and ask before putting together an answer, because you were sucked into supporting one side (not that there are sides, but some think that they belong to one) and suddenly you discovered that you hadn't all the facts and the answers right. So you had to ask for them, do additional research, and get "counsel". This could also explain why you took so long to answer to my simple questions.

If it is "3", then a word of warning: it would not be the first time that someone else has been sent in one of these debates as a "misinformed volunteer", while those who like to initiate them stay hidden. See also my main question: why you are avoiding to talk face to face with Herman about the issues you have with his work?

I'm a professional reviewer, in Italy, and I wrote about the Harpoon line both in our monthly magazine and in our Strategy special issues. I could post the scans, if you wish.

How delightful. A self confessed critic. Who is so good at it that he still earns his money that way, rather than earning his money from being creative.

Actually I do earn money both ways:

http://www.ubcfumetti.com/interview/0212.htm
http://www.ubcfumetti.com/data/beretta.htm
http://www.ubcfumetti.com/enciclopedia/oltremare/

From the third link you can even download a free Comic in PDF written by me and illustrated by Giancarlo Alessandrini to promote a fantasy line we are doing both for the French and the Italian market. It is in Italian, but you can look at the pictures.

Being a critic helps to be creative, BTW: it teachs you to look at what even yourself have done with objective eyes.

Sorry for this fumble of yours, but it would seem that whoever "informed" you about me left out some crucial data. It happens.

Now to clean up a couple misunderstandings;-

Well, PDb scenarios could be published with the line "Please, we are poor people, our children are starving, we have no solace in our lives, except for the occasional scenario we publish. We know that our scenarios suck, but, please, say that you enjoy them anyway, so our children can find a little bit of happines while surfing the internet". But it would be, IMHO, surreal, not to mention false, since, AFAIK, PDb users are not starving.

However, I still fail to see where a PDb scenario creator defined "his work the best thing since siliced bread" - beyond the usual enthusiasm that surrounds any new Mod/scenario announcment for any game. Could you point us a specific link where this happened?

As I cannot afford to buy sliced bread (prices have rise 60% in this area in the past year) I find your first paragraph arrogant, offensive, patronising, and rude if not perhaps moronic.

...Not to mention "diachronic".

As for the 2nd paragraph, "It's the best thing since sliced bread" is an English idiom that means "It's an overhyped piece of junk that we can't think of anything else good to say about." I was talking about the hype surrounding the PDB, NOT an individual scenario

Maybe because PDb, sometimes makes parts of ANW that are broken playable again. Since you do seem to like references to Usenet, you will love this thread:

http://groups.google.it/group/comp.sys. ... 5f76?hl=it&

His buglist? He refers to other people's efforts but does not name them. Other people who have been fingered by Herman say it's Hermans. Gee, it's such a good bug list nobody wants to take responsibility for it.

Well, he does name them ( http://tinyurl.com/34fogy ) - as someone possessing the facts of the matter would already have known.

BTW, will you "credit" your ghostwriters for this thread? [;)]

What's this "we" nonsense?

"We" as in "we, the players - we who bought the game, enjoy playing it, give suggestions to the developers team and point out problems. I'm sorry to hear that for you is "nonsense".

Did you tell AGSI about these bugs? No you did not.

Sorry, I forgot how, in your opinion, AGSI is unable to read the official forum of its product on its distributor site...

Well, my beta test agreement states that I cannot reveal my own activities as far as fixing bugs go... but I don't hear AGSI complaining about my activities here. I can give you one concrete example. Page 10 of your "bug list" gives "Ammo Dumps Emptied". The same bug is reported on page 17 (it seems you are not the only one who repeats himself;

Thanks for the double-listing report. It will be fixed in the next release of the buglist. I see that you are getting a grasp about how it works. [:)]

So I went through all the ODB scenarios with 3.7, recorded the original munitions types, plane loadouts, ammo dump types, airbases, whether or not a scenario actually had any airbases or ammo dumps, and posted the text files to AGSI. That way whoever gets to fix it is saved the difficulty of switching between 3.9 and 3.7.

[/quote]

Instead of whining and complaining about the "ammo dumps being unloaded", the PlayersDB just went ahead and FIXED THE PROBLEM with their versions by adding the appropriate ammunition. So, only the PlayersDB has all the 120 original scenarios in any sort of functional state. This amazing fact was noted 2 years ago when ANW was first released and it Still Has Not Been Fixed by AGSI. Obviously, they don't listen to you either.

So, the score on this one is: Reported TWICE, counted ONCE, solved ZERO times.

Let's now put 1+1+1 together, shall we? You are a beta-tester, and you perused the buglist - but you still affirm that AGSI was not told about the bugs, and they do seem ignore even reported ones. Something in this chain seems to be broken... [:-]

I DID SOMETHING TO TRY TO HELP. Not as part of the beta test process. But to demonstrate a commitment.

I can sympathize with you in this: it can be frustrating, and it makes you a magnet for "people who know better".