Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Widell

I also want to second TonyE in his statement to go Open Source. You can get most tools you need initially for free regardless of what language or dialect you decide to go for.

Hey all good advice but to repeat what you said no one tool fits every situation. Open Source may not be the best road for someone who may eventually want to sell some version of their product. Speaking in general terms here, I don't know this particular thread originator's ultimate intent.

Most Pro tools don't cost that much and the skills you learn are far more marketable outside of playtime.

In the end its all about matching up with your goals the right tools like you said though [:D]

As far as i remember the latest express editions of visual studio has relaxed the non-commercial clauses in their license agreements. Im pretty sure you can make money from them. They are by far the easiest to learn IDE (Integrated development environment) that i have found when building pc based projects (not so good if you want to build a project cross platform, though not horrific either).

Make sure you visit www.gamedev.net - this should get you going.

Note: C# is not c++ - To me it was built bridge between visual basic and c++ trying to take the best aspects of each. Dont know too many games written in c# (i seem to remember there was at least one matrix game), but i dont know thats due to the fact it's unsuitable - it's probably more down to the fact that c# is a relatively new language.

ORIGINAL: Veldor
Open Source may not be the best road for someone who may eventually want to sell some version of their product.

You are right. If you decide to go pro, you most likely need pro tools.

For amateur code crunchers like myself, Open Source is a good way to play around with ideas and concepts for free. On the other hand, there's stuff developed Open Source that will at least last for a long time for many of us (Netbeans, Eclipse, PHP, MySQL, WampServer and a whole lot more).

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

If I were going to learn a programming language with which to create a war game what would be the best language to use? What programming language are the majority of wargames created with? What programming language works best with wargames?

Thanks. [:)]

It's a difficult question to answer really but here is what I know: Close Combat was written C/C++, so was The Ardennes Offensive by SSG, so was East Front/West Front by Talonsoft. I was in the same shoes as you are now about 10 years ago and my decision was to use Visual C++ on Windows - game hobby development. I have written few Close Combat 1 editors and I'm currently porting ASL Starter Kit Rules 1,2,3 to computer. Wrote my own hex based 2D engine in C++ and MFC. I chose C++ because it's a very powerful development language, has a lot of features and produces relatively small binaries. So if you want build you game engine that doesn't need the latest hardware with not a lot of memory requirements than C++ is a great choice.

In the end please keep in mind that even if you have your game rules done and tested it will take some time to properly design and develop to turn it into a computer wargame.

Peter

PS: Visual C++ 2005 Standard Edition has all you need and you could get around $100 or so - this is what I'm using and I'm pretty happy with it (I have been using VC++ since version 4.0, 1995)

http://www.amazon.com/Microsoft-Visual- ... B000BT8TRQ

What do you gentlemen think of using Torque X Builder in association with the free binary Torque X library to create 2D games just for fun? Information on Torque X Builder can be found here http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque/x/

I am a C#/VB.NET developer so being able to use XNA and all of the coding in VS 2005 Express is a definite plus!

I'm feeling like messing around with developing some games. The TXB is $100 so it's not too huge of an investment...if it's worth it.

Thanks,

Bill

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
... and I'm currently porting ASL Starter Kit Rules 1,2,3 to computer.

<sits up>

Ok - spill the beans ! [;)]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

If no-one would mind I'd like to refocus this to two different examples as it seems the very width of what a wargame could be means that different languages might each be best for quite different games.
&nbsp;
So, which would be best for:
&nbsp;
1. A grand strategy title, 2d, turn-based, top-down and with a need to just run lots and lots of database queries so as to plug the results into the various combat algorithms. From what I've read C# might be a good choice as it allows the whole editor side of things ( a huge aspect of a Grigsby-esque game ) to be speeded up.
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
2. Isometric, sprite-based,&nbsp;turn-based ( perhaps WEGO ) platoon-level wargame a la X-Com except with larger numbers of controllable troops. I'm guessing that VB would be quite sufficient to programme such a game but that one might get better results with OOP and the large number of libraries etc available or C++ or ( to a lesser extent ) C# ?
&nbsp;
&nbsp;
Comments?

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

If no-one would mind I'd like to refocus this to two different examples as it seems the very width of what a wargame could be means that different languages might each be best for quite different games.

So, which would be best for:

1. A grand strategy title, 2d, turn-based, top-down and with a need to just run lots and lots of database queries so as to plug the results into the various combat algorithms. From what I've read C# might be a good choice as it allows the whole editor side of things ( a huge aspect of a Grigsby-esque game ) to be speeded up.


2. Isometric, sprite-based, turn-based ( perhaps WEGO ) platoon-level wargame a la X-Com except with larger numbers of controllable troops. I'm guessing that VB would be quite sufficient to programme such a game but that one might get better results with OOP and the large number of libraries etc available or C++ or ( to a lesser extent ) C# ?


Comments?

Best is whatever language you already know the best. Otherwise there is no right answer. My answer was based in part on what would be the easiest and most employable language to learn at this point, should you not know any already. If you've done any programming at all, even years and years ago I would say C#. If you've truly never written a line of code in your entire life, then and only then I'd probably say VB.NET.

Learning C++ from scratch is a lot harder than learning C# from scratch. The extra libraries aren't worth it. You don't need them.

As long as you don't pick Cobol or Fortran to program your wargame you'll probably do ok...

ORIGINAL: TonyE
A million programmers, a million opinions [:)]

Yes. This is why I'll give my usual two cents as well. [;)]

First and foremost, the programming language is not the most important. What is important is the function/objects library that comes with the environment you use. That's why C# is a good choice and "plain" C/C++ might be a harder path.

My two cents are that C++ is a good adventure but go open source if you can stand it. Something like GCC (compiler) + Eclipse (IDE) + wxWidgets (buttons, lists, etc.) allows you to develop in pretty much the same code across Windows, Linux, and OS X.

For games, I wouldn't recommend wxWidgets but the SDL library ( http://www.libsdl.org/ ). Illwinter's Dominions series of games are based on it. Lots and lots of binders for different languages are available.

Next, as far as unusual programming languages are concerned, I'd recommend Python ( http://www.python.org/ ) with the most excellent SDL implementation PyGame ( http://www.pygame.org ); Simple and fun. Combat Mission Campaign is supposed to be programmed in Python.

Have fun,

JeF.

ORIGINAL: sterckxe

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
... and I'm currently porting ASL Starter Kit Rules 1,2,3 to computer.

<sits up>

Ok - spill the beans ! [;)]

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

Hi Eddy,

Do a search for "XASL" in this thread:

tm.asp?m=1280844&mpage=4&key=XASL&#1292392

ORIGINAL: Nemo121

If no-one would mind I'd like to refocus this to two different examples as it seems the very width of what a wargame could be means that different languages might each be best for quite different games.

So, which would be best for:

1. A grand strategy title, 2d, turn-based, top-down and with a need to just run lots and lots of database queries so as to plug the results into the various combat algorithms. From what I've read C# might be a good choice as it allows the whole editor side of things ( a huge aspect of a Grigsby-esque game ) to be speeded up.


2. Isometric, sprite-based, turn-based ( perhaps WEGO ) platoon-level wargame a la X-Com except with larger numbers of controllable troops. I'm guessing that VB would be quite sufficient to programme such a game but that one might get better results with OOP and the large number of libraries etc available or C++ or ( to a lesser extent ) C# ?


Comments?

Start with something small first; like for example build a hexagonal map first and go from there. It's important to start with a small goal first otherwise you will have hard time reaching your goal even possibly fail. Two things to keep in mind about C++ vs C#. C# will be easier to start with however if you think possibly you will be porting your game engine to say linux os you should really consider C++.

Here is a good game development page on the net about hexagonal or isometric game engines:

http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~am ... eprog.html

Also if you can try to find this book...it will help you get starter faster (though you will need some c++ knowledge). It's an order book but has a lot of stuff you can directly use:

http://www.amazon.com/Isometric-Program ... 0761530894

What's good if I want to make a cRPG with topdown view, 2d graphics and tactical combat? And if I want it to be runnable both on windows and linux?

ORIGINAL: Perturabo

What's good if I want to make a cRPG with topdown view, 2d graphics and tactical combat? And if I want it to be runnable both on windows and linux?

There are some open source middle ware projects out there that you could use; just do some search on google

Please keep in mind also one more thing. Games have been around on computers for a long time and for the most part, all the games are wrtitten either in C or C++ (there is of course assembler but let's not focus on that). So there is a lot more game code samples out there in C/C++ than in C#. Even today most games are wrtitten in C++ because of the speed of the binaries. It's easier to write code in C# but C# doesn't have the feature scope of C++ and you will be pretty much limited to widows only. Also C# is Microsoft controlled, C++ is the whole world standard...

Ugh...
I hate the idea of Microsoft controlled...

I guess I'll try with C++...
I have to learn it for my informatics technician exams anyway...

Hey Perturabo, I wonder what's that image you have as your avatar and message signature. Is that a screenshot from a game ?

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla
Here is a good game development page on the net about hexagonal or isometric game engines:
http://www-cs-students.stanford.edu/~am ... eprog.html

... among other compulsory themes for any game developers.
I wholeheartedly second that recommendation.

ORIGINAL: Perturbato
What's good if I want to make a cRPG with topdown view, 2d graphics and tactical combat? And if I want it to be runnable both on windows and linux?

I'll repeat my self : SDL library ( http://www.libsdl.org/ ).

For easier porting, standard compliant C/C++ with the same complier on both platforms. Have a look at the MinGW project ( http://www.mingw.org/ ). Or things like Python or Java.

I hope this helps,

JeF.

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Hey Perturabo, I wonder what's that image you have as your avatar and message signature. Is that a screenshot from a game ?

Looks like the original Command and Conquer.

ORIGINAL: Gary Childress

OK. So let's say I want to learn C++. Are there any inexpensive online colleges which others here can recommend which offer classes over the Internet?

Also whats the cheapest LEGAL way of getting C++?

Thanks.

Visual C++ Express Edition is free, or you can get the GNU compilers. You might want to
think about C# instead C++ if you want to avoid the hassle of dealing with pointers and such. C and C++ are very powerful, but they require a lot more of the programmer. They are the industry standards though, so if you are looking to do this as a career and work for some company you will probably have to learn them. At this point though I don't think using C# would cause any performance issues especially for a wargame.

O'Reilly (ora.com) might have some classes for C++. I know they do for C .

Edit: Weren't the Panzer Command titles programmed in C#? I believe I remember reading that somewhere.

Anyone know the connection between XNA and DirectX? I haven't kept up on it much.

ORIGINAL: JeF

I'll repeat my self : SDL library ( http://www.libsdl.org/ ).

For easier porting, standard compliant C/C++ with the same complier on both platforms. Have a look at the MinGW project ( http://www.mingw.org/ ). Or things like Python or Java.

Thanks. IIRC Dosbox and UFO AI and some games from Shrapnel Games used it.

ORIGINAL: Peter Fisla

Hey Perturabo, I wonder what's that image you have as your avatar and message signature. Is that a screenshot from a game ?

It's a screenshot Command & Conquer: Tibarian Sun with my old mod.