Matrix Games Forums

Actually, the new method actually increases GM ablilties Iceman. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Currently, both ECM and flares reduce to hit and number of missiles that hit. By limiting the abilities of both to a single category, you increase the powers of GMs again. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

As to jock suicide, just NB a guy enough (someone like Firestorm let's say) and he'll do anything you want. <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> (See TOS Role Play post to understand this) Either that or the wonderful world of eugenics would breed jocks with team survival in mind. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

Ghaa!!! <img src="mad.gif" border="0"> making fun of me?! i will KILLL you!!! =-) j/k

anyways heres the idea larkin mentioned about chewing up acts. i came up w/ it, refined it w/ PC, and then e-mailed it to him (if i recall correctly). anyways:

Name: Ion Torch
Range: 0
Damage: 5
Size: ~3-4 slots
Weight: ~10-15 T
Heat: ~20 degrees C
Type: Energy/CC (can be blocked by shields)
Special: has ~30% chance of damageing gyros/acts in location hit.

effectively this thing could freeze a titan in place completely. just imageine it: a recon w/ a pair of em freezes a mugger (!!!!), then another recon procedes to slowly chew it up from behind... with a *single* SL.
that would be embarrasing.... =-)

Originally posted by Hetz:
Since I was the one to start this latest round of nonsense it seems that I need to clairify some things about what a self destruct option meant to me.

1st, thank-you Larkin for knowing what I was driving at even when my idea was so vaguely phrased.

In mechwarrior the self-destruct option was tied to a trait called "survival" which also governed your eject rolls. The idea was that you would eject and then have your mech explode AFTER you ejected. Survival was still not a given because if you ejected into a woods and the explosion set the woods on fire your successfully ejected pilot could still die in the forest fire. I don't remember if mechwarrior had a "hotseat" option but I only played with experience built teams. Self Destructing was not something that you did so you could watch the pretty explosion but a last ditch try to salvage an hopeless game. The threat of it however made you have to consider it as a tactical option. In other words you tended not to clump a lot of expensive assault mechs too close together. In other discussions, CC weapons have been evaluated as better used in smaller faster titans so I'm not sure that I buy "SD" as hugely changing assault tactics. A "SD" option is not going to affect duels. Only in team play with experience built pilots that you REALLY do not want to lose are you going to have this choice. So "just how lucky do you feel, punque?".

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Here is an addition for this possibility. SInce a pilot would have to overcome his Survival instincts to push the self-destruct button.

Pilot must do a skill check using their survival skill.
If they fail the survival skill check then another skill check vs the top leadership skill% in the team or the pilot will automatically trigger the eject sequence.

This way both Leadership and survival become more important.


I like the Ion weapon as well but it seems it could be abused very easily.

Originally posted by Larkin [Vicious Byte]:
On self destruct. I'm thinking of adding the choice for either regular or better or if your D.C.S and survival skill exceed 60%. This will trigger the following setup : The jock is shutting of the heat reg and runs the engine in overdrive mode ( same heat increase as if it was damaged heavily ). This will need a successfull but secret skill check which is taken at the moment the jock actually ejects ( whole action does take twice normal eject time ). From this moment on the titan will produce heat without reduction, resulting in an engine explosion at 300C (if the check was successfull). So there is A) no abuse by creating rookie bombs, B) no guaranteed success and C) a nice time bomb NOBODY will know when/if it will go off.

Oppinions ?

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YOu want a special button in the main for that?

Originally posted by Lyhrrus:
Actually, the new method actually increases GM ablilties Iceman. <img src="smile.gif" border="0"> Currently, both ECM and flares reduce to hit and number of missiles that hit. By limiting the abilities of both to a single category, you increase the powers of GMs again. <img src="biggrin.gif" border="0">

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Against targets *without* flares, certainly! But that's the whole point. Flares *will* be very useful. You'll just get slaughtered without them.
GMs will be a little more powerful, yes, but that's a matter of tweaking. And I think there's no doubt that flares *also* get more powerful. You didn't mention that.
If Larkin implements it as I suggested some time back, with a flares roll for every missile, then the added 'luck factor' makes it more exciting IMO.

Originally posted by Eric Petersen:


Here is an addition for this possibility. SInce a pilot would have to overcome his Survival instincts to push the self-destruct button.

Pilot must do a skill check using their survival skill.
If they fail the survival skill check then another skill check vs the top leadership skill% in the team or the pilot will automatically trigger the eject sequence.

This way both Leadership and survival become more important.


I like the Ion weapon as well but it seems it could be abused very easily.

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Sounds very good to me. Enhancing those skills is a big bonus. I still don't like the SD idea though.

About the Ion weapon, is it a CC or an energy weapon? Can't be both... If it is a CC, you could limit it to 2 per titan, if not, then it will surely be abusive. Add BRGs to the mix and it gets explosive. Being CC would prevent CSs and PXs of being used though.

Originally posted by firestorm:
Name: Ion Torch
Range: 0
Damage: 5
Size: ~3-4 slots
Weight: ~10-15 T
Heat: ~20 degrees C
Type: Energy/CC (can be blocked by shields)
Special: has ~30% chance of damageing gyros/acts in location hit.

effectively this thing could freeze a titan in place completely. just imageine it: a recon w/ a pair of em freezes a mugger (!!!!), then another recon procedes to slowly chew it up from behind... with a *single* SL.
that would be embarrasing.... =-)

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Hmm, upon closer examination, how could a recon (40 tons) have 2 of these (20~30 tons, 6~8 slots) and still have room for an engine and heat reg? This is a weapon for mediums to assaults. The current heaviest weapon in the game is 12 tons. If it is blockable by a shield, then a good shield will effectively cancel this weapon (5 damage only, 10~15 tons of dead weight). There's no weapon modifier and no PU cost in the specs, but CC and energy reload really fast. At 30% chance each hit...

Originally posted by THE Iceman:


Against targets *without* flares, certainly! But that's the whole point. Flares *will* be very useful. You'll just get slaughtered without them.
GMs will be a little more powerful, yes, but that's a matter of tweaking. And I think there's no doubt that flares *also* get more powerful. You didn't mention that.
If Larkin implements it as I suggested some time back, with a flares roll for every missile, then the added 'luck factor' makes it more exciting IMO.

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I added it into WS as it makes sense. Now comes the hard part - balance. Since titans without flares would certainly be slaughtered by GMs as they stand now ( GM6 = 24 damage ) I think we must again reduce them to 3p damage per rack or reduce rack size. I would think the former will be more interesting.

Originally posted by THE Iceman:


Sounds very good to me. Enhancing those skills is a big bonus. I still don't like the SD idea though.

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If you don't like it - don't use it. Since it will only work for jocks from premade teams it will be unlikely that your enemy will use it.

I might add the ability for few leader type AI enemies but thats uncertain.

SD is a last ditch weapon meant for solo play and can be fun. It won't spoil fun if it is imlemeted right.

Originally posted by Larkin [Vicious Byte]:


I added it into WS as it makes sense. Now comes the hard part - balance. Since titans without flares would certainly be slaughtered by GMs as they stand now ( GM6 = 24 damage ) I think we must again reduce them to 3p damage per rack or reduce rack size. I would think the former will be more interesting.

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Yep, just like I said back then <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Originally posted by Larkin [Vicious Byte]:


If you don't like it - don't use it. Since it will only work for jocks from premade teams it will be unlikely that your enemy will use it.

I might add the ability for few leader type AI enemies but thats uncertain.

SD is a last ditch weapon meant for solo play and can be fun. It won't spoil fun if it is imlemeted right.

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Unless your enemy is a human player.
I was thinking and it's not that hard to come up with a rookie with 60 damage control and 60 survival. It's quite easy actually, even with a newly released jock. 70 would make it really hard though, as raising skills above 60 starts getting really hard.
Having tactics available to the players and not the AI kinda sucks, it's a reversed air drop thing... is the AI's motivation lower than a player's?

Can I call you 'I must have the last word'-Man instead of Iceman ?

Think twice about what you wrote. Maybe you see the holes in your logic by yourself. If not - who care <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Hmmm, what part are you referring to?

Originally posted by THE Iceman:


Hmm, upon closer examination, how could a recon (40 tons) have 2 of these (20~30 tons, 6~8 slots) and still have room for an engine and heat reg? This is a weapon for mediums to assaults. The current heaviest weapon in the game is 12 tons. If it is blockable by a shield, then a good shield will effectively cancel this weapon (5 damage only, 10~15 tons of dead weight). There's no weapon modifier and no PU cost in the specs, but CC and energy reload really fast. At 30% chance each hit...

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hmm, good point... *but* it would make it harder to abuse. plus you'd have a CC wepon for those heavy's/assaults. and when i said CC/Energy, i was refering to sort of how the flamer is, only not quite the same. basicly it's a CC weapon that can be blocked by a shield. but you're also rite about the PU cost... maybe give it sort of like how the GC has, only more so, costing 2 PUs to attack in adition to the normal reload time?
i'm trying to make it work (unless too many people object to it... then i'd quit...). that's why i made the damage so low. after all, a light could punch for more damage. this would be a really hard to use weapon.

Originally posted by THE Iceman:
Hmmm, what part are you referring to?

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I saw larkins point right away. Whats not to get?

Ok, Mr. Smart, so if you forget the 1st phrase (why and how the hell will you make it work in solo play and not in any other mode?), how about the rest of the post? Or is it just too simple for you?

Originally posted by Larkin [Vicious Byte]:
Can I call you 'I must have the last word'-Man instead of Iceman ?

Think twice about what you wrote. Maybe you see the holes in your logic by yourself. If not - who care <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

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And Larkin, using words like 'unlikely' and 'solo play only' in the same post doesn't help. Unless you're illuminated like all Creators seem to be...

Originally posted by THE Iceman:
Ok, Mr. Smart, so if you forget the 1st phrase (why and how the hell will you make it work in solo play and not in any other mode?), how about the rest of the post? Or is it just too simple for you?

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1st) I prefer Emperor Smart to Mr. Smart.

2nd)self-Destruct will not be available for non-tourney teams or as larkin put it: solo play. How it will be coded? Larkin said it could be coded. Sounds good to me. Larkin has told me of the AI improvements and how he can teach specific rules to it so I do not doubt this can be done. Please let us know if you have any other questions.

Originally posted by Eric Petersen:


1st) I prefer Emperor Smart to Mr. Smart.

2nd)self-Destruct will not be available for non-tourney teams or as larkin put it: solo play. How it will be coded? Larkin said it could be coded. Sounds good to me. Larkin has told me of the AI improvements and how he can teach specific rules to it so I do not doubt this can be done. Please let us know if you have any other questions.

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Correction: Self-Destruct would only be available for Solo play

Nah, Mr Smart is just fine, don't want you to get too cocky <img src="smile.gif" border="0">
Since it's Larkin the one who knows how SD will work, then I'll ask him the questions.
When you say solo play you mean campaign only, or campaign *and* human vs AI? Hence my question about coding.
This is the *only* thing you've said do far about such restrictions *before* that particular post:
"If use is limited for self created jocks which must be at least of a cerain level/skill I don't think it will be missused. But it can give a certain thrill to an already desperate situation."
Nothing there about solo play. Self created jocks include 4 player games.

Just to finish my participation in this SD business, 'last ditch' in my book refers to a desperate situation. If a jock can do it and get away with it, I'd hardly call it a desperate situation. I'd call it taking advantage of an already savaged titan (and not jock, please notice) to inflict some more damage. A desperate situation is only a desperate situation if it is desperate *for the jock*, not the titan. Else he can eject normally.
In a war situation, and that's what we're talking about in the new setting of ToS, only a hardened veteran would have the conditioning to attempt such a thing. The current conditions don't express that IMO. With a good leader, a 60/60 rookie is easy to get. My first attempt got me a 49/60 fresh out of prison...
There's also the 'medium being brutally savaged by a CC recon' situation, jock goes SD as he has nothing to lose (his titan is scrap) and gets away and that probably kills his opponent - jock and titan. I don't see this as a tactical option.
Finally, an explosion has a radius of effect of 2 hexes. When a jock goes SD, the titan is probably (should be - last ditch) prone from damage. If the titan is facing up, how will the jock leave the cockpit and *run* 1 km (3 hexes) in 10~20 secs? If it is facing down, then command couches in that time are really good.