Matrix Games Forums

Some of you are amazing.  Take the heavy modifier out then.  My point is that it simply is not fair.  I don't care whether I am GB or not.  It makes absolutely no logical sense that every country gets a +1 mod for having a heavy superiority but GB.  Just stop and think about the rule from a logical standpoint...
 
Matrix says that in naval warfare, a admiral going into battle with 1.5x heavies had such a numerical advantage over his adversary that such an advantage on the board would warrant a modification to damage in the form of a +1 modifier on the combat resolution table.  I agree with this.  It makes sense.  Maybe the rule should be tweaked to 2x heavies instead of 1.5x?  I don't know.  But regardless, you can NOT have this rule, then tell GB that it does not apply to you since you already have a +1 modifier for your navy being the best-trained and most-discplined of that era.  It is inconsistent and logically erroneous.
 
I am not advocating that GB MUST get a +2 modifier.  I am open to other suggestions, such as changing the amount of heavies necessary to achieve this modifier, or doing away with it altogether.  The point is, you can not make a blanket rule like the heavy superiority one, and then tell one country that they have no way of taking advantage of it.  Either heavy superiority means you do more damage or it doesn't.  It really is that simple!

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

Some of you are amazing.  Take the heavy modifier out then.  My point is that it simply is not fair.  I don't care whether I am GB or not.  It makes absolutely no logical sense that every country gets a +1 mod for having a heavy superiority but GB.  Just stop and think about the rule from a logical standpoint...

Matrix says that in naval warfare, a admiral going into battle with 1.5x heavies had such a numerical advantage over his adversary that such an advantage on the board would warrant a modification to damage in the form of a +1 modifier on the combat resolution table.  I agree with this.  It makes sense.  Maybe the rule should be tweaked to 2x heavies instead of 1.5x?  I don't know.  But regardless, you can NOT have this rule, then tell GB that it does not apply to you since you already have a +1 modifier for your navy being the best-trained and most-discplined of that era.  It is inconsistent and logically erroneous.

I am not advocating that GB MUST get a +2 modifier.  I am open to other suggestions, such as changing the amount of heavies necessary to achieve this modifier, or doing away with it altogether.  The point is, you can not make a blanket rule like the heavy superiority one, and then tell one country that they have no way of taking advantage of it.  Either heavy superiority means you do more damage or it doesn't.  It really is that simple!

I think there can be a point where the advantages get saturated. That is, that after a +1 type-advantage maybe anymore advantage is really useless.

Also, if you wanted to make it interesting, I think rather than giving GB +2 for this (since the most you can roll is a 7) why not give it's enemies a -1?

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

Some of you are amazing.  Take the heavy modifier out then.  My point is that it simply is not fair.  I don't care whether I am GB or not.  It makes absolutely no logical sense that every country gets a +1 mod for having a heavy superiority but GB.  Just stop and think about the rule from a logical standpoint...

Matrix says that in naval warfare, a admiral going into battle with 1.5x heavies had such a numerical advantage over his adversary that such an advantage on the board would warrant a modification to damage in the form of a +1 modifier on the combat resolution table.  I agree with this.  It makes sense.  Maybe the rule should be tweaked to 2x heavies instead of 1.5x?  I don't know.  But regardless, you can NOT have this rule, then tell GB that it does not apply to you since you already have a +1 modifier for your navy being the best-trained and most-discplined of that era.  It is inconsistent and logically erroneous.

I am not advocating that GB MUST get a +2 modifier.  I am open to other suggestions, such as changing the amount of heavies necessary to achieve this modifier, or doing away with it altogether.  The point is, you can not make a blanket rule like the heavy superiority one, and then tell one country that they have no way of taking advantage of it.  Either heavy superiority means you do more damage or it doesn't.  It really is that simple!

I think there can be a point where the advantages get saturated. That is, that after a +1 type-advantage maybe anymore advantage is really useless.

Also, if you wanted to make it interesting, I think rather than giving GB +2 for this (since the most you can roll is a 7) why not give it's enemies a -1?

RAY

Heavy modifier is basically for France and Spain. They were major navies at this time and should have an advantage against the other MPs, just like Prussia and Austria who were not navally focused have a disadvantage. The French and the Spanish could (and did) defeat the British in naval battles, but it required an advantage to overcome British training, in this case a 1.5X advantage in heavies under the rules nullifies, not overcomes British training. EiH has the max +1 modifier in naval battles - it was designed that way intentionally (+2 is only for interceptions by Nelson, NOT for combat resolution). You can do a bunch of rule modifications to fit 'what ifs' - "what if Nappy applied his advanced training skills to fleet operations? we should remove the british training bonus from the rules" but in the end play balance and game design gave us the current rules. If you do not like them, then you do not have to play. If you want the +2 bonus for British fleets then give all French forces a +1 training modifier to recognize their land superiority and allow a max of +2 for the French in combat - no one will play.

NEVERMAN

What about the already existing -1 for Prussia/Austria?

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

for a blockade...if GB is willing to commit enough ships to maintain a heavy adavantage of 1.5, then I say she deserves the multiplier.  Think about it.  Against France, she would have to dedicate 59 of her 76 ships to get that advantage.

Actually, she would need more than 59, assuming France is not an idiot. All France has to do to maximize GB's needed heavy count is to use an odd number of heavies in each force. For example:

France uses 4 fleets of 7 heavy ships and one fleet of 11 (the lights don't matter for this purpose).

GB must blockade the fleets that have 7 ships with 11 each in order to hit 1.5x (10 is only ~1.42). The fleet of 11 must be blockaded by 17 ships. That adds up to 61 heavies needed.

By the way, as a tip for French players setting up out there: Even under the current rules, there is yet another version of this calculation: France should always try to have his heavy ships laid out in odd multiples of 3. The reason for this is that GB needs to prevent France from getting the +1 for heavy 1.5x ratio. Any multiple of 3 allows for an integer to be the value 2/3 (the inverse of 3/2 or 1.5). So, a fleet of 9h blockaded by 6h grants the +1 to the force in port. GB must, therefore, place at least 7h into that port's blockade box.

The reason for it having to be odd is in case this current discussion bears fruit in the "GB should get +2" discussion. Otherwise, any multiple of 3 will work.

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis
I could conclude from reading this thread that a +2 mod would be in line IMO. I would still obviously only allow a max net roll of "7".

Does this sound acceptable?

Yes.

Actually, don't change the code for this, but the maximum effective roll only needs to be a six, because the tables are the same for the two rolls. So, whether you are using +1 max or +2 max, if you cap the actual die total at 6, the end result is the same as with a 7.

As Neverman (I think) pointed out, the real value of +2 (and +1, for that matter) is at the bottom end of the scale. GB cannot roll a modified 1. Therefore, his minimum damage is 10%. If the rule changes to +2, then his minimum modified roll is a 3, and his minimum damage is 15%. THAT is where it really comes into play.

However, having played GB more than all other countries combined (nobody ever wants to bid high enough, so I get stuck with it), I can say I'm not sure I would focus on the 1.5 bonus so much as preventing the France from getting it. I'll use Holland as an example:

Holland has 13h and 6l. To gain 100% victory odds (the best kind), GB needs to kill 4 ships. With the +1, she requires 35 ships for this. With +2, she requires 22. She saves 13 total ships, but 20 of them have to be heavy (13 more than she would otherwise have to commit). I probably wouldn't do this at all ports. Saving 26 light ships at the expense of 13 extra heavy ships is non-obvious whether that's a good idea or not. It would depend a lot on who my allies were. If I wind up in a war with Spain, I'ld better have those heavy fleets available to fight.

ORIGINAL: sw30
When you can get to a point where GB can blockade FR and SP at the same time, are you finally going to be happy?

That WOULD be more historical, but no, I'm not arguing for that. Straw arguments are easily defeated. Try better ones next time.

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL
Matrix says that in naval warfare, a admiral going into battle with 1.5x heavies had such a numerical advantage over his adversary that such an advantage on the board would warrant a modification to damage in the form of a +1 modifier on the combat resolution table.  I agree with this.  It makes sense.  ...  But regardless, you can NOT have this rule, then tell GB that it does not apply to you since you already have a +1 modifier for your navy being the best-trained and most-discplined of that era.  It is inconsistent and logically erroneous.

This is a good point. VERY good point, in fact (although, you've been saying it all along; not many have been listening to you, and even I -- who agrees with you -- missed this one).

What should happen if the BEST sailors in the world also happen to have 50% more ships-of-the-line in a particular battle than does its opponent? GB crushed the French and Spanish outmanned and outgunned by nearly 25% (calculated both ways: Total ships or SotLs only). What one earth would have happened if GB had had, say, 50-60 SotLs and a smaller number of Frigates?

+2 makes even more sense to me now. Consider me back in the debate.

ORIGINAL: Murat
Heavy modifier is basically for France and Spain. They were major navies at this time and should have an advantage against the other MPs, just like Prussia and Austria who were not navally focused have a disadvantage. The French and the Spanish could (and did) defeat the British in naval battles, but it required an advantage to overcome British training, in this case a 1.5X advantage in heavies under the rules nullifies, not overcomes British training. EiH has the max +1 modifier in naval battles - it was designed that way intentionally (+2 is only for interceptions by Nelson, NOT for combat resolution). You can do a bunch of rule modifications to fit 'what ifs' - "what if Nappy applied his advanced training skills to fleet operations? we should remove the british training bonus from the rules" but in the end play balance and game design gave us the current rules. If you do not like them, then you do not have to play. If you want the +2 bonus for British fleets then give all French forces a +1 training modifier to recognize their land superiority and allow a max of +2 for the French in combat - no one will play.

That doesn't answer his challenge. Answer this: What would have happened in a real, historical (1805-1815) naval battle if the British had 50% more ships-of-the-line than her opponents?

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

Some of you are amazing.  Take the heavy modifier out then.  My point is that it simply is not fair.  I don't care whether I am GB or not.  It makes absolutely no logical sense that every country gets a +1 mod for having a heavy superiority but GB.  Just stop and think about the rule from a logical standpoint...

Matrix says that in naval warfare, a admiral going into battle with 1.5x heavies had such a numerical advantage over his adversary that such an advantage on the board would warrant a modification to damage in the form of a +1 modifier on the combat resolution table.  I agree with this.  It makes sense.  Maybe the rule should be tweaked to 2x heavies instead of 1.5x?  I don't know.  But regardless, you can NOT have this rule, then tell GB that it does not apply to you since you already have a +1 modifier for your navy being the best-trained and most-discplined of that era.  It is inconsistent and logically erroneous.

I am not advocating that GB MUST get a +2 modifier.  I am open to other suggestions, such as changing the amount of heavies necessary to achieve this modifier, or doing away with it altogether.  The point is, you can not make a blanket rule like the heavy superiority one, and then tell one country that they have no way of taking advantage of it.  Either heavy superiority means you do more damage or it doesn't.  It really is that simple!

I think there can be a point where the advantages get saturated. That is, that after a +1 type-advantage maybe anymore advantage is really useless.

Also, if you wanted to make it interesting, I think rather than giving GB +2 for this (since the most you can roll is a 7) why not give it's enemies a -1?

Neverman, as I said, I am totally open to suggestions and this is a good suggestion. Are you suggesting this would be a special case for GB, or that we change the heavy rule so that it modifies the enemies roll -1? Either suggestion is a good one. It maintains the consistency I desire. If you could expand on your idea, I am all ears.

Ray, I was suggesting the -1 only for (against) GB. All other MPs would get a +1 for 1.5x heavies.

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Ray, I was suggesting the -1 only for (against) GB. All other MPs would get a +1 for 1.5x heavies.

Neverman thats the worst joke i read on boards so far.
GB has +1-+2 Wind Gauge, +1 Always in combat.
And you wish to add -1 to his opponent ??? GB was not invincible on the sea, they lost sea battles..


Ray, i think you should accept +1 as the max battle-modifier.
Maybe you should think playing some other Nation.

Regard
Bresh

Bresh.  Multiple people agree with my arguement.  I am sorry you don't share the same opinion.  If you want to make a logical arguement, pertaining to the specific rule, and why it is not inconsistent or illogical, I am all ears.  If you choose to attack me with the arguement that "I should accept" simply because that is the opinion you hold, you can shove it.  I have no problem playing any other nation, and I still would fully support GB getting all applicable modifiers, whether I am France, Spain, or any other major power.  I thought NeverMan's suggestion was a good one.  Marshall, your thoughts?

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

Bresh.  Multiple people agree with my arguement.  I am sorry you don't share the same opinion.  If you want to make a logical arguement, pertaining to the specific rule, and why it is not inconsistent or illogical, I am all ears.  If you choose to attack me with the arguement that "I should accept" simply because that is the opinion you hold, you can shove it.  I have no problem playing any other nation, and I still would fully support GB getting all applicable modifiers, whether I am France, Spain, or any other major power.  I thought NeverMan's suggestion was a good one.  Marshall, your thoughts?

Multiple people agree, ehm thats no argument, i can say excactly the same.

Im 100% against -1 to all vs GB thats a big game destroying rule.
Your arguments where mathematical, so you should see this is a bad road to go, decreasing GB Naval risk by aprox 16%. Game balance is fucked by such changes.
EIANW favors GB more than in EIA at the current situation.
You cant talk inconsistency and forget game balance.

I have nothing personal against you.


Regards
Bresh

OK, well I am done with this arguement.  I can no longer restate my logic and reasoning (I've only done it like 5 times).  All I keep hearing form those that oppose the idea is that they are worried about GB being too dominant at sea (as if she has anything else!), and they ignore debating any of the logic I present.  Therefor they are either choosing to ignore my post (in which case I have no dsire to argue with you then) or they simply can't refute it.  Marshall, I believe this is a major inconsistency, and I ask that you change it.  If anyone wants to argue it, please go make your own thread as to why you think it's wrong, and I'll be sure to avoid it. 
 
Marshall, I have laid out all my reasoning and logic in this thread, and I don't think you can truthfully disagree with it.  I am open to ideas and suggestions to rid the game of this inconsistency.  NeverMan's suggestion was a good one.  I'd love to hear your opinions and thoughts on the subject.

ORIGINAL: RayKinStL

Marshall, the classic scenario wouldn't have to address this since there is no heavy/light distinction.  This is peculiar to the EiANW rules.

Ray:

That's what I meant by the classic scenario addressing this (Only one ship type).
We're on the same page.

Ray
 
Praise to you for fighting the battles you believe in.
 
I'm sorry to tell you that I disagree with you - well almost sorry that is [;)].
In forums like this, whats logical and consistent becomes subjective.
 
Here is my version:
 
Naval battle is a game, where you either have advantage (+1), disadvantage (-1) or none of those (+0).
 
If you have more benefits than drawbacks you get advantage.
If you have more drawsbacks than benefits you get disadvantage.
 
Benefits: Outnumber opposing HS 1.5 to 1, have british ships.
Drawbacks: Have only LS, have preussian or austrian ships.
 
The british are lucky, they can get advantage with only 1 HS. But so are Preussia and Austria, they don't get disadvantage for using only LS.
 
Logic and consistent to me [:)].
But that is when you look at it isolated. I still believe you have to view it in the game context. If it works here, my feeling of logic and consistancy comes second.
 
/eske

ORIGINAL: bresh

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Ray, I was suggesting the -1 only for (against) GB. All other MPs would get a +1 for 1.5x heavies.

Neverman thats the worst joke i read on boards so far.
GB has +1-+2 Wind Gauge, +1 Always in combat.
And you wish to add -1 to his opponent ??? GB was not invincible on the sea, they lost sea battles..


Ray, i think you should accept +1 as the max battle-modifier.
Maybe you should think playing some other Nation.

Regard
Bresh

You realize that the -1 is only if GB has 1.5x heavies right?

I agree with Ray that it makes NO SENSE that a naval rule exists that benefits everyone EXCEPT the major naval player. How does that make sense???????????????

I have an idea, let's make a rule that everyone can get cav superiority +1 EXCEPT Turkey. Yeah, that's a great fucking idea!!!!! LOLOLOLOL.

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: bresh

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

Ray, I was suggesting the -1 only for (against) GB. All other MPs would get a +1 for 1.5x heavies.

Neverman thats the worst joke i read on boards so far.
GB has +1-+2 Wind Gauge, +1 Always in combat.
And you wish to add -1 to his opponent ??? GB was not invincible on the sea, they lost sea battles..


Ray, i think you should accept +1 as the max battle-modifier.
Maybe you should think playing some other Nation.

Regard
Bresh

You realize that the -1 is only if GB has 1.5x heavies right?

I agree with Ray that it makes NO SENSE that a naval rule exists that benefits everyone EXCEPT the major naval player. How does that make sense???????????????

I have an idea, let's make a rule that everyone can get cav superiority +1 EXCEPT Turkey. Yeah, that's a great fucking idea!!!!! LOLOLOLOL.

About the only vs GB who has 1.5 heavies, no sorry that didnt show in your description.
I guess you then want -2 to Austria/Prussia Light fleets to ? And not cap at 1 as modifers, as Eske so good described.

Regards
Bresh

ORIGINAL: bresh

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: bresh




Neverman thats the worst joke i read on boards so far.
GB has +1-+2 Wind Gauge, +1 Always in combat.
And you wish to add -1 to his opponent ??? GB was not invincible on the sea, they lost sea battles..


Ray, i think you should accept +1 as the max battle-modifier.
Maybe you should think playing some other Nation.

Regard
Bresh

You realize that the -1 is only if GB has 1.5x heavies right?

I agree with Ray that it makes NO SENSE that a naval rule exists that benefits everyone EXCEPT the major naval player. How does that make sense???????????????

I have an idea, let's make a rule that everyone can get cav superiority +1 EXCEPT Turkey. Yeah, that's a great fucking idea!!!!! LOLOLOLOL.

About the only vs GB who has 1.5 heavies, no sorry that didnt show in your description.
I guess you then want -2 to Austria/Prussia Light fleets to ? And not cap at 1 as modifers, as Eske so good described.

Regards
Bresh

I'm getting the impression that you didn't bother to actually read any of my posts.

No, I think the cap should be +1 or -1, besides, how many games have you been in where Au or Pr are outnumbered in heavies 1.5 to 1 by GB???? I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS EVER, EVEN IN EMPIRES IN ARMS, so it's really a moot point.

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

ORIGINAL: bresh

ORIGINAL: NeverMan




You realize that the -1 is only if GB has 1.5x heavies right?

I agree with Ray that it makes NO SENSE that a naval rule exists that benefits everyone EXCEPT the major naval player. How does that make sense???????????????

I have an idea, let's make a rule that everyone can get cav superiority +1 EXCEPT Turkey. Yeah, that's a great fucking idea!!!!! LOLOLOLOL.

About the only vs GB who has 1.5 heavies, no sorry that didnt show in your description.
I guess you then want -2 to Austria/Prussia Light fleets to ? And not cap at 1 as modifers, as Eske so good described.

Regards
Bresh

I'm getting the impression that you didn't bother to actually read any of my posts.

No, I think the cap should be +1 or -1, besides, how many games have you been in where Au or Pr are outnumbered in heavies 1.5 to 1 by GB???? I HAVE NEVER SEEN THIS EVER, EVEN IN EMPIRES IN ARMS, so it's really a moot point.

Actually Neverman, i guess you dont read mine.

I wrote Light Fleets. Light fleet alone is default -1, Au/Pr fleets in your force is also -1.

That would even vs GB with a 1 heavy ship, GB Heavy fleet be -3 if you didnt put a cap of 1. With your -1 modier.
I did read you think 1 is the cap. But trying to fix a +2 to -1, so that cap of 1 is held, does not sound good.
Then all who fight austria+prussia light fleets should get a default +1 to, even if both sides only had light ships.

Im not sure witch post you refer to, i read these 2 nothing says that your suggested -1 modifer is when GB has 1.5 heavies ?

1.
Ray, I was suggesting the -1 only for (against) GB. All other MPs would get a +1 for 1.5x heavies.
2.
I think there can be a point where the advantages get saturated. That is, that after a +1 type-advantage maybe anymore advantage is really useless.

Also, if you wanted to make it interesting, I think rather than giving GB +2 for this (since the most you can roll is a 7) why not give it's enemies a -1?