Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: rockmedic109

I was going to ask if the mine replacement rates were by type or all mine types from the same pool.  But if it will take months to reload a minelayer then the question is moot because mines will not longer be useful. 

By type, so far.

They will still be extremely useful.
Players will just have to be more selective in placing them.

No more 20,000 mines at every major base on the map.

No more mega aerial mining strikes every turn.

We had "Mineweeper Tycoon" in UV.
WITP, more of them but not as deadly.
AE will attempt to balance it out, without distorting their actual value.

It's a hot topic on the AE forum.[;)]

I would like there to be a % chance of a succesful laying of a mine.
 
I dont know if there are stats on it but I'd be confident a reasonable % failed to operate, floated away etc

Don't think there's been any change yet in minefield degradation.
Still based on the type of sea hex that the minefield is in, plus base ownership.
As far as I know.[;)]

ORIGINAL: Halsey

It's a hot topic on the AE forum.[;)]

To say the least

By type, so far.

They will still be extremely useful.
Players will just have to be more selective in placing them.

Just great. This is how it should be. Absent a whole production system game should repect more or less the historical production/pool numbers.

ORIGINAL: Dili

By type, so far.

They will still be extremely useful.
Players will just have to be more selective in placing them.

Just great. This is how it should be. Absent a whole production system game should repect more or less the historical production/pool numbers.

Well as I said earlier they had far more than was used, and the way it looks there will be far less in the game than they used even. During WWI the Mk 6 (still used as late as 1985 BTW) was being produced at a rate of 1500 a day (at a cost of $400 each). Numbers of mines available isnt an issue, or at least shouldnt be. The issue is how to resolve the problem of players putting 30,000 mines around every base.

ORIGINAL: Yamato hugger

ORIGINAL: Dili

By type, so far.

They will still be extremely useful.
Players will just have to be more selective in placing them.

Just great. This is how it should be. Absent a whole production system game should repect more or less the historical production/pool numbers.

Well as I said earlier they had far more than was used, and the way it looks there will be far less in the game than they used even. During WWI the Mk 6 (still used as late as 1985 BTW) was being produced at a rate of 1500 a day (at a cost of $400 each). Numbers of mines available isnt an issue, or at least shouldnt be. The issue is how to resolve the problem of players putting 30,000 mines around every base.

It would require a code change {a little late} but what about making an upper limit on what the program sees? You may have 20,000 mines at a base but only 1,000 are counted when the program looks for mine hits?

Well don't see the problem of putting 30000 mines if they indeed were produced and there were ships to deploy them. The problem might be with game engine formula. After some number there should be diminishing returns since all important places are covered and outrageous numbers should increase the odds of "friendly fire". Also a tempest might wash them in just one day.

One option is to have a limit of efficiency in mines per hex linked to the base size, available coast to do landing etc. A base like Pearl Hourbour needs much more mines to be protected while a tiner one needs, less putting same number of mines in the tinier one should not give a reward.

Might be also a reason to have a ground mines and moored mines diference. Moored protect against bombardements and ships in distance. Coastal ones protect against disembark. Then you would have 2 limits. In non-coastal hexes only moored mines go.

To see how a disaster can happen:
13th-20th, First Battle of Sirte and Related Actions - Early on the 19th off Tripoli, a British cruiser force ran into an Italian minefield. Cruiser “NEPTUNE” hit three or four mines and sank with only one man surviving. “Aurora” was badly damaged and “Penelope” slightly. Trying to assist “Neptune”, destroyer “KANDAHAR” was mined and had to be scuttled the following day. Out of a three cruiser and four destroyer force, only three destroyers escaped damage.

ORIGINAL: Dili


To see how a disaster can happen:
13th-20th, First Battle of Sirte and Related Actions - Early on the 19th off Tripoli, a British cruiser force ran into an Italian minefield. Cruiser “NEPTUNE” hit three or four mines and sank with only one man surviving. “Aurora” was badly damaged and “Penelope” slightly. Trying to assist “Neptune”, destroyer “KANDAHAR” was mined and had to be scuttled the following day. Out of a three cruiser and four destroyer force, only three destroyers escaped damage.

EECK. Sounds like something that just happened in my game! AG Kaijo Torakku SD-21 struck five Mk 13 mines. Hard to believe she was still afloat after the second mine. I guess she blew out of the water and several pieces landed on other mines. Bouncing around the minefield.

I had thought I had read somewhere {maybe even in a UV post} that more than 1000 mines in a hex did not increase the chances of a mine hit.

I like Dili's idea of diminishing returns, but it would be a lot more work {having to figure optimum number of mines for each base?}.

All this brings to mind that WWII was fought only once - while this game gets played over and over again. We get to see the rare things many more times, and that can skew our perception of things.

Just to help some peeps to get a real handle on this ..... here is the Rand report.

http://www.rand.org/pubs/reports/2006/R1322.pdf

Makes a great read .....and a Very compelling argument on why you don't want b29's in range of the HI

This is what good minefields can do (albeit not airdropped mines), during evacuation of Tallinn in 1941, Soviet ships run into join German-Finnish minefields:

http://www.feldgrau.com/baltsea.html

The survivors of the Tallinn exodus (in German parlance - the Juminda mine battle) arrived in Kronstadt and Leningrad on 29 and 30 August, 1941. Over 50 Soviet naval ships were lost or sunk mostly to mines (the Krivoi was damaged by mines, but managed to make it to Kronstadt):

Sunk (total loss of life was in excess of 14.000 people):

Destroyers: Artiom, Engles, Kalinin, Jakov Sverdlov, Skoroy, Volodarsky
Submarines: S-5, ShTsh-301
Minelayers: Nr. 56 (Barometr), Nr. 71 (Krab), TTShTsh-42, Izhorets-17
Coastal Patrol Boats: Sneg, Topaz, Tsyklon, Yupiter
Patrol boat: MO-202
Gunboat: I-8
Hydrographic vessels: Astronom, Vostok
Maritime rescue vessel: Saturn
Staff ship: Vironia (ex-Estonian)
Tanker: TN-12
Floating workshop: Serp i Molot
Torpedoboat: TKA-103
Ice breakers: Kristjans Valdemars (ex-Latvian navy)
Q-ship: Hiiusaar (ex-Estonian)
Motorized sailing vessel: Tiir (ex-Estonian)
Merchantmen, Passenger Steamers and Transport ships: M.S. Alev (ex-Estonian), Atis Kronvaldis (ex- Latvian), M.S. Ausma (ex-Latvian), Balhash, Ella (ex-Estonian), M.S. Ergonautis (ex-Latvian), M.S. Everita (ex-Latvian), Ivan Papanin, Järvamaa (ex-Estonian), Kalpaks (ex-Latvian), M.S. Khazhakhstan, M.S. Lake Lucerne (ex-Estonian), Luga, Lunatsharsky, M.S. Naissaar (ex-Estonian), M.S. Petergof (Peterhof), M.S. Siauliai (ex-Lithuanian), M.S. Sigulda (ex-Latvian), M.S. Skrunda (ex-Latvian), Tobol, S.S. Vaindlo (ex-Estonian), S.S. Vormsi (ex-Estonian).

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

This is what good minefields can do (albeit not airdropped mines), during evacuation of Tallinn in 1941, Soviet ships run into join German-Finnish minefields:

http://www.feldgrau.com/baltsea.html

The survivors of the Tallinn exodus (in German parlance - the Juminda mine battle) arrived in Kronstadt and Leningrad on 29 and 30 August, 1941. Over 50 Soviet naval ships were lost or sunk mostly to mines (the Krivoi was damaged by mines, but managed to make it to Kronstadt):

Sunk (total loss of life was in excess of 14.000 people):

Destroyers: Artiom, Engles, Kalinin, Jakov Sverdlov, Skoroy, Volodarsky
Submarines: S-5, ShTsh-301
Minelayers: Nr. 56 (Barometr), Nr. 71 (Krab), TTShTsh-42, Izhorets-17
Coastal Patrol Boats: Sneg, Topaz, Tsyklon, Yupiter
Patrol boat: MO-202
Gunboat: I-8
Hydrographic vessels: Astronom, Vostok
Maritime rescue vessel: Saturn
Staff ship: Vironia (ex-Estonian)
Tanker: TN-12
Floating workshop: Serp i Molot
Torpedoboat: TKA-103
Ice breakers: Kristjans Valdemars (ex-Latvian navy)
Q-ship: Hiiusaar (ex-Estonian)
Motorized sailing vessel: Tiir (ex-Estonian)
Merchantmen, Passenger Steamers and Transport ships: M.S. Alev (ex-Estonian), Atis Kronvaldis (ex- Latvian), M.S. Ausma (ex-Latvian), Balhash, Ella (ex-Estonian), M.S. Ergonautis (ex-Latvian), M.S. Everita (ex-Latvian), Ivan Papanin, Järvamaa (ex-Estonian), Kalpaks (ex-Latvian), M.S. Khazhakhstan, M.S. Lake Lucerne (ex-Estonian), Luga, Lunatsharsky, M.S. Naissaar (ex-Estonian), M.S. Petergof (Peterhof), M.S. Siauliai (ex-Lithuanian), M.S. Sigulda (ex-Latvian), M.S. Skrunda (ex-Latvian), Tobol, S.S. Vaindlo (ex-Estonian), S.S. Vormsi (ex-Estonian).

Also, many more were damaged.

ORIGINAL: Halsey
Don't think there's been any change yet in minefield degradation.
Still based on the type of sea hex that the minefield is in, plus base ownership.
As far as I know.[;)]

Small change in minefield degradation - there is a new ship type, ACM (minefield tender) that can maintain minefields so they won't degrade. Without an ACM in the hex, minefield will degrade SAIEW.