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ORIGINAL: henri51

ORIGINAL: Michael the Pole

Imagine that Hitler stabs the Japs in the back and refuses to declare war on the United States in Dec, 1941.

Sorry, but did you ever wonder WHY Hitler declared war on the USA, considering that he considered treaties as scraps of paper?

He did so because he knew that Roosevelt would go to any length to get the US into the war against Germany (whci was already the case in practice given Lend-lease and the sub war in the Atlantic). Roosevelt would have continued to increase aid to Britain and it would have been only a matter of time before some event such as the sinking of a US ship would have given the excuse to go to war.

Farfetched? Consider that the US used such events (invented when required) to get into the 1812 War, the Spanish-American War, the Vietnam War,and the war in Irak, to mention only a few. Roosevelt was going to get the US into the war by hook or by crook, and Hitler knew it.

Henri

BTW, I don't have this game, but how does it compare to Advanced Tactics (also sold by Matrix)? AT is he closest thing I have seen to War in Russia, and the developers are making another one that they say will be even closer...

My my, what a "target rich environment" as the fighter jocks would say. So we'll start with our new pigeon, oops, sorry, I meant new comrade -- and then we'll feed Gary into the grinder.[:'(]
Henri51, Have you heard of the ship called the good Rueben James?
Run by hard fighting men, both of honor and fame? She flew the stars and stripes for the land of the free, but tonight she's in her grave at the bottom of the sea....
It was there in the dark of that cold, uncertain night, they watched for the U-Boats and waited for a fight. Then a whine and a rock and a great explosion roared that laid the Rueben James on the cold ocean floor."
Hahahaha -- that was just too good to pass up![:D] Pardon my levity (cough, cough.)
USS Rueben James was stationed in Iceland in 1941 and was assigned as part of the escort of the East bound convoy HX156. On 31 October, 1941 Rueben James had deliberately placed herself between an amunition ship and the known position of several U-Boats operating as a hunting or wolf pack. At 0525 U-552, Kapitainleutnant Erich Topp, torpedoed the Rueben James, blowing it's bow completely off and detonating the forward 4 inch magazine. One hundred and fifteen Americans died.
Roosevelt didnt declare war. He didnt declare war because he was too busy defending himself from the calls for his impeachment for sending an American warship into a combat zone when we were nuetral. The sinking occured less than a month before the November Presidental Election and Wendell Wilkie was hammering Roosevelt about his "secret plan to involve us in the European War." It was such an issue that Roosevelt, in one of the most outrageous lies in American political history, (ranking closely behind "I am not a Socialist" and ""I did not have sex with that woman") promised that he would "...not send American boys into any foreign wars."
Now, Henri51, I can't believe that you think that Wilkie was correct and that Roosevelt DID have a secret plan to get us into a war with Hitler.[X(]!!!
Because if he did, and Americans died as a result, Roosevelt would have been impeached so fast that it would make your hair white! If you doubt this take a quick look at the Senate hearings into the period prior to Pearl Harbor, and the accusations that Roosevelt had prior knowledge of the Japanese attack plans.
Gary, I have to run -- I'll visit you later this evening.
Love and kisses

Nice argument, but...[:-]

In 1940, the isolationists were a minority, and the Republicans had chosen Wendell Wylkie, an internationalist who was in no way an isolationist. The Congress passed the draft, and voted budgets to significantly increase the US military. Roosevelt gave orders to shoot on German submarines on sight, and Congress passed lend-Lease and the US gave airplanes and ships to Britain in exchange for bases in the Atlantic.The US was clearly gearing up for war.

As for impeachment, the isolationists did not have the votes in Congress to impeach Roosevelt, and Republican leader Wylkie would not have supported such a move. And anyhow, since when have American Presidents been impeached for lying about the reasons for going to war? Was Johnson impeached for lying about the rigged Tonkin Gulf incident? Was Bush impeached for lying about inexistant weapons of mass destruction?

It had been clear to Roosevelt that the US was going to be drawn into the war, and in this he was far-seeing and correct in his actions.

Given the above facts and others, I stand by my answer that Pearl Harbor or not, the US was inevitably headed for war.[8D]

Henri

"You supply the army and I will supply the war!" Newspaper magnate William Randolph Hearst to the US President before the start of the Spanish-American War (which also used the alleged blowing up by Spain of the ship Maine as an excuse to go to war -and we know today that the Maine was not blown up by explosives placed on the hull as claimed at the time, but from an explosion on the inside).

ORIGINAL: henri51

I stand by my answer that Pearl Harbor or not, the US was inevitably headed for war.[8D]

You get no argument from me on that. However ...

your original post stated pretty much that Roosevelt forced Hitler to declare war on the US. Your implication further was that poor old Hitler was just minding his own business, and if not for the bullying of the mean old US, he was all for peace.

As for Bush lying about the weapons of mass destruction ... oh man, I can see there's no point in going further with enlightening you on that ...

What a fantastic forum! Brilliant!