Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: NCSUforest

There is one one rule in war - The victor get to write the history of it.

Yep... so lets not talk about the 4 MILLION German POW that Roosevelt transferred in 1946-1948 to Soviet to become Slave Labour for Soviet Union in Definite!





'

ORIGINAL: ool

Actually to get the FACTS out let me explain.

A)The Russians annexed Estonia. Prior to the German invasion.
B)Several of my family members I'm told got the 2Am knock at the door and were never seen again. NKVD specials.
C)When The Germans came they were seen as liberators, got to be better than the Soviets they thought.
D) Having had members of the family disappear my father chose to join the Estonian army.
E) Later when the Germans formed the 20th Waffen SS my fathers unit was folded into the new unit.There wasn't exactly a choice. Your conscripted end of story.
F)Nuremburg war crimes trials found that conscripted people weren't Nazi's. Their reasoning was that the members of the units weren't Nazi indoctrinated, just drafted. I would call the Nuremburg war trials a pretty thorough and credible body to make such a ruling.
G) Why do I use the graphics? In respect for those who naievely thought that by fighting they could someday gain Estonian independence. Hey these are the same guys that in every country think there is glory in war and it will be over before they can get a chance to fight. Well what do you expect from walking hormones?
H) One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. Can't do anything about peoples prejudices.
I)I have no use for Communist, Nazi, or especially right wing American Republican ideology.

Sometimes a icon is used just as a sign of respect for the fallen.

Anyway that's why i have what i have. Now if we can get by the two year old temper tantrums of "the voice of authority", when is AE coming out?

Well, I for one appreciate your explaining your sig line photo. I'll admit when I saw that the relif had a soldier in a german style helmet and carrying a MP-40, I was a little concerned, till I reseached the monument , and realized that it was a ANTI-NAZI monument. Still, it's good of you to explain , so that no one else will make such a mistake.

NOW about the not very nice comment addressed to Terminus, that comes within a hairs breath of bing construed as a personal attack. The management of this forum (and I do mean MATRIX) has repeatedly posted that it absolutely will not tolerate personal attacks. Because you have only posted 47 times, may I assume that you are new here? Then please take this as a personal request....PLEASE DO NOT MAKE PERSONAL ATTACKS. We do not do that here, nor do we tolerate those who do.

That being said , since I haven't said it before, welcome to the forum.[:)]

ORIGINAL: Japan

ORIGINAL: ool

American situational ignorance is legendary!

I fully agree with you here.
I think that if one in the US would have a national educational system like we have here, were education is for free, regardless of what School or University you go to, then lawmakers could forced more History and International and Society related educated into the Americans school system, something who would made the average less Ignorant and less Arrogant.

Well you think it's bad now you should have seen it before that war criminal Bush launched his forces into Iraq! American media fell into the party line as if they were in a communist country. Many Americans near the border were happy to get the CBC and get a objective third party report of what was going on in the world!

Time for some more green buttons I see.

i guess there are different views regarding freedom fighters here.
you can consider people freedom fighters who join the army of another country (like for example the members of the foreign legion who defended Bir Hacheim (do not know if i go the name right, mean the fort defended against Rommel), consisting of Germans (some Jews, for example) to fight against their country. You can also regard De Gaulles army in this way. If they win, they are freedom fighters, if the loose, traitors. (see the estonians...)
What USS America is talking about are Resistance fighters. Here there are clear restrictions. They have to be marked as combatants to be considered an armed force. They have to be marked by badges or similar. Wether they are freedom fighters is completely dependend upon the viewpoint you take. If they fight for what you believe in, you call them freedom fighters, if not , terrorists.
Most Resistance fighters do not mark themselves as armed forces (US Civil war, Missouri is the perfect example, you can also take Afghanistan or Vietnam). Here it becomes difficult. How do you deal with them? How do you tell them apart from the rest of the population? What do they fight for? They fight for what you believe in? Again, freedom fighters, ok a little dirty, but if they win no one asks. They fight against what you believe in? they are clearly criminals and terrorists.

It is a) completely dependend upon the personal viewpoint and b) dependend upon who wins the war (unrestricted submarine warfare is a good example for this one, or terror bombing); The winner decides what is morally correct. Crimes like Auschwitz are of course exempt from this.

regarding the Waffen-SS, she was delared a criminal organisation by the Nürnberg trials. This includes the WHOLE Waffen-SS. They just did not bother to prosecute everyone of the 950000 involved.

This is not intended as america bashing.
There is also no intent to make all the Estonians who were members of the Waffen-SS Nazis. I once treated a patient who was member off the 12 SS Division "Hitlerjugend" He joined with 17! How many 17 year old know what they are doing compared to let's say 40 year old?

ORIGINAL: Feltan

I really, really, really, really, really, really, don't care when AE is release. (Thereby subtracting six weeks from the delivery date.)

Regards,
Feltan

And I really, really, really, don't care either. Thus moving it up by some weeks.

ORIGINAL: Japan

ORIGINAL: USS America

ORIGINAL: ool

H) One mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist. Can't do anything about peoples prejudices.

Sorry, I can't let that garbage be repeated over and over until everyone believes it. A freedom fighter is not a terrorist, and a terrorist is not a freedom fighter.

Freedom fighters attack, fight, and kill armed forces of a power who is keeping them under it's control against their wishes. Yes, anytime there is fighting innocent people can and do end up being hurt and killed. That is always a terrible and regrettable thing. [:(]

Terrorists attack, fight, and kill civilian men, women, and children ON PURPOSE to scare the civilian population into letting them have their way. They do it with no remorse or regret. [:-]

When everyone in this world stops making excuses for the actions of terrorists, we can finally start making progress against them. [8|]

This is a whole bunch of Bull..
Its typical western propaganda, sorry for using that word but it is the truth.



1. A Freedom Fighter is an Illegal combatant, you can claim what you like, but once a Nation has capitulated ALL Armed resistance is an ACT OF TERRORISM!
This is defined by the Geneva Convention, and by multiple International Treaties, both new ones and old ones.

If you say anything different, you are not talking facts, but opinions!




2. We have (like it or not) created Terrorism. Since the Brittish occupations back in the 1600 scenery to Western Policy's of the modern world, all has contributed to Terrorism.




3. If you truly think that war's are fought without deliberate killing of civilians, then I think you are way off!
Everyone kill's civilians deliberately, we did it over and over again in WW2, and we do it over and over again today in Gaza. We will do it any time the situation require us to.

AND if we got involved in a major world war aigan, then we would kill civilians in massive quantity's (aigan), but now in the modern world we would do it with Nuclear wepons.




So, I do not see the "problem" with Terrorism, it's War like any other war, but fought with primitive weapons.


You can see this as "their" way of doing Fire bombings of Tokyo... Its imply just that they have less resources, and they are no country.
Why are they no Country? Well, if they were they would been sanctioned to death due to their beliefs, so the only way for them to wage war is by Terrorism.

Given the right situations, we would all been Terrorists.
Sometimes in Defencive War of what we consider to be our land (ie. Freedom Fighter as you see it) and somethimes as in Offencive War (ie, General Terror as you see it).


Now personally I do not support ANY form for Agressive War, regardless of in what form it is conducted.

Japan , I must totally agree with USS America. And even more totally dis-agree with you. There is a massive difference between freedom fighters and terrorists.
A good example is some of my ancestors, who were hung by the British government. They were French-Canadians who objected to France transferring Canada to British control, after loosing a war. And were hung for attacking British military units. Other ancestors of mine , were part of an organization called "Sons of liberty". They were terroists. They attacked British troops (on a very rare occassion , generally when they found one alone and drunk). They generally attacked loyalist Americans (Tories) and practiced a game called "tarring and feathering", which was on occasion fatal.

Agressive war? What defination do you use? The Nuremburg defination? Or the, any war is agressive war? With out a defination , that term , as well as your argument , is meaningless. [:(]

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

i guess there are different views regarding freedom fighters here.
you can consider people freedom fighters who join the army of another country (like for example the members of the foreign legion who defended Bir Hacheim (do not know if i go the name right, mean the fort defended against Rommel), consisting of Germans (some Jews, for example) to fight against their country. You can also regard De Gaulles army in this way. If they win, they are freedom fighters, if the loose, traitors. (see the estonians...)
What USS America is talking about are Resistance fighters. Here there are clear restrictions. They have to be marked as combatants to be considered an armed force. They have to be marked by badges or similar. Wether they are freedom fighters is completely dependend upon the viewpoint you take. If they fight for what you believe in, you call them freedom fighters, if not , terrorists.
Most Resistance fighters do not mark themselves as armed forces (US Civil war, Missouri is the perfect example, you can also take Afghanistan or Vietnam). Here it becomes difficult. How do you deal with them? How do you tell them apart from the rest of the population? What do they fight for? They fight for what you believe in? Again, freedom fighters, ok a little dirty, but if they win no one asks. They fight against what you believe in? they are clearly criminals and terrorists.

It is a) completely dependend upon the personal viewpoint and b) dependend upon who wins the war (unrestricted submarine warfare is a good example for this one, or terror bombing); The winner decides what is morally correct. Crimes like Auschwitz are of course exempt from this.

regarding the Waffen-SS, she was delared a criminal organisation by the Nürnberg trials. This includes the WHOLE Waffen-SS. They just did not bother to prosecute everyone of the 950000 involved.

True. However as I stated there were noted exceptions by the tribunal.

ORIGINAL: ool

Well USS America what do you call the Vietnam massacre at My Lai. Hope I spelled it right. How about the American illegal invasion of Iraq? The hundreds of thousands of innocent Iraqi's killed by your good old boys? Get to the time period you obviously don't have a clue of what your good old allies the Soviets did even before the Germans invaded. American situational ignorance is legendary! Only surpassed by their egos and intergalactically big mouths! Which why most Americans come to Canada first to buy back packs with Canadian flags before going abroad.

OK. Now your are absolutely being personal. And way out of line. Any time that you would like to get together and personally discuss your comments, you'd find me more that willing. [:@]

ORIGINAL: Japan

ORIGINAL: ool

American situational ignorance is legendary!

I fully agree with you here.
I think that if one in the US would have a national educational system like we have here, were education is for free, regardless of what School or University you go to, then lawmakers could forced more History and International and Society related educated into the Americans school system, something who would made the average less Ignorant and less Arrogant.

And where would that be? You are unwilling to even state what country you are from.

Another thread that never should have been born.

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Another thread that never should have been born.

And ool I suspect you have a political agenda lurking behind that sig pic. I suggest you remove it and choose something different.

Thanks,

Joe

And Steve (and everyone for that matter) do not issue even remote threats of physical violence to other forum posters - even if they are out of line - you can think what you want to think - but do not post it. You start to cross legal boundaries when you do that.

Thx

Joe

This thread is really disgusting - now that I'm reading it. My fault - I should've locked it right after the first post - I knew better - shame on me.

But having let it run - let me issue one further warning to ool and Japan. Please take your political dialog elsewhere. The Matrix forums are about computer war games. This is not a political discussion forum. There are such available on the web. This forum is NOT one of those.

If you need to find one - you can either google or go look in our very own General Discussion sub-forum at the top of the main Matrix forum list. You will often see links to such forums posted there.

Thx

Joe