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RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:12 pm
by paulderynck
ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Perhaps a better way of effecting carpet bombing results would be to disorganize the units and put them temporarily out of supply (say for the impulse). This would mean that instead of the unit disappearing completely off the map, they would be reduced to 1 or 3 strength points and vulnerable to attacks (even overruns) during the later phases of the impulse. This way, carpet bombed units could recover completely if there were no land units to attack them.
Just an idea.
My take at a different Carpet Bombing rule :
Carpet Bombing is now performed at the same time as ground support in the sequence of play, but still is a different mission with different interceptions, etc…
Carpet bombing planes still use their strategic bombing factors, and still use the regular carpet bombing rules, except that only land units can suffer from Carpet Bombing and that each * (star) obtained on the strategic bombing table give the attacker an added bonus to the attack, +2 for a Corps, +1 for a DIV.
The randomly chosen Corps or DIV is then also destroyed if shattered by the normal combat result, or shattered if suffered no results by the normal combat result, or simply retreated.
Not a bad suggestion, but maybe for full reality add disorganization (some chance) or damage (small chance) occurrences to adjacent Allied units.
Also leave out the "land units only". A good German defence late in the game is to intercept with one or two poor fighters and land them on the target hex after the air battle (maybe just one round against the massive Allied air force by then but at least it gets rid of the plus 1). If its a critical objective hex late in the game, you reduce the chance of losing a ground unit. (Yes I know... gamey, gamey, gamey... sorry)
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 8:30 pm
by Mad Russian
Bayerlein reported that all his men were dead. That the entire division was destroyed.
Of course this was not the case. Even in the most intense bombardments there are people left alive when it's over.
What was the case is the tremendous concussion of the carpet bombing rending the soldiers unable to defend themselves for a period of time. Whether or not they were in vehicles doesn't seemed to have mattered. If the attack was immediate the defenders were less than fully functional. That is a successful attack whether or not it killed the enemy unit outright. However the terrain disruption to AFV exploitation was severe and probably not worth the effort. IIRC, there was a single operational Panther tank the operational area of the 3rd Armored Division to start with. Why carpet bomb a situation like that?
That report shows that Panzer Lehr was combat ineffective and withdrawn completely by 5 August. The carpet bombing took place on 25 July.
That's 11 days.
While the PzIV's weren't in the drop area most of the rest of the division was.
So, again, while I don't think the division was killed to a man by your reports findings, that the division was already seriously depleted, that they had a large contingient of troops assigned to them, and that they had a large number of "MIA".
Out of all that they reported, after they had time to sort it all out, a loss of 50% of the division that was already depleted would be considerable.
But again, we are talking "combat effective" here. Lehr was not combat effective after they were carpet bombed. And again, this is the only case where it was even marginally successful.
Killing units? I wouldn't think so. Disrupting them absolutely.
Good Hunting.
MR
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 9:49 pm
by gridley
ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: gridley
My initial question was weather or not it is realistic and should be used, as even in this forum there was not even an agreement if one single division was ever destroyed from the air.
Well, I'd say yes, it should be used.
What is good with WiF is that it allows not only for what happened in WW2, but also for what could have happened. Better carpet bombings could have happened with more luck and more bombers, as obtaining full Geschwaders of Me262 (or none at all, I saw that) could have happened too. Playing without carpet bombing is playing without a possible reality that could have happened, and this is not good for my taste. I like WiF to be open.
Too true...WiF is not a recreation of WWII, it is a game set in the time period of WWII. Just a discussion on the option that's all.[:)]
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Mon Apr 20, 2009 11:13 pm
by composer99
The 3d10 combat chart, which includes fractional losses of units, allows for a more realistic depiction of carpet bombing since units are damaged instead of destroyed outright.
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 10:33 am
by micheljq
You speak about a division, the option 32 in WiF allows the destruction of whole army corps, that's insane. If somehow it would allowed only divisions to be anhililated, and not easily.
Anyway if it's still an option that can be turned off for our campaigns, I will be happy.
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:11 am
by micheljq
ORIGINAL: Mad Russian
Bayerlein reported that all his men were dead. That the entire division was destroyed.
Of course this was not the case. Even in the most intense bombardments there are people left alive when it's over.
What was the case is the tremendous concussion of the carpet bombing rending the soldiers unable to defend themselves for a period of time. Whether or not they were in vehicles doesn't seemed to have mattered. If the attack was immediate the defenders were less than fully functional. That is a successful attack whether or not it killed the enemy unit outright. However the terrain disruption to AFV exploitation was severe and probably not worth the effort. IIRC, there was a single operational Panther tank the operational area of the 3rd Armored Division to start with. Why carpet bomb a situation like that?
That report shows that Panzer Lehr was combat ineffective and withdrawn completely by 5 August. The carpet bombing took place on 25 July.
That's 11 days.
While the PzIV's weren't in the drop area most of the rest of the division was.
So, again, while I don't think the division was killed to a man by your reports findings, that the division was already seriously depleted, that they had a large contingient of troops assigned to them, and that they had a large number of "MIA".
Out of all that they reported, after they had time to sort it all out, a loss of 50% of the division that was already depleted would be considerable.
But again, we are talking "combat effective" here. Lehr was not combat effective after they were carpet bombed. And again, this is the only case where it was even marginally successful.
Killing units? I wouldn't think so. Disrupting them absolutely.
Good Hunting.
MR
The Panzer Lehr has been fighting in Normandy in June and July 1944, and was already severely depleted by all that fighting, namely at Caen. In fact on Wiki, it's says the division was almost depleted by 7 months of fighting.
I think the allies airforce caught what was remaining of the division on full retreat from Caen. For me it's more a long attrition that almost destroyed the unit. The division could have been lost entirely at that point because the americans just did their breakthrough at Avranches and the division could be caught between the american and british. But what was remaining of the division escaped, later got reinforcements and fought the battle of the Bulge.
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 11:50 am
by composer99
Carpet bombing is an optional rule, so no one is obliged to play with it.
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 12:37 pm
by OzHawkeye2
I suppose my Wifnorance is showing through again, but historically carpet bombing was typically only employed at the strategic level - I take it from the discussion in this thread that in Wif it had a tactical application as well?
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Tue Apr 21, 2009 5:27 pm
by LiquidSky
Whilst playing the americans, I made extensive use of carpet bombing. I found that I could cause greater bp loss to the axis, then by bombing his factories, so much so, that game concluded, we no longer allowed carpet bombing.
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:12 am
by Zorachus99
ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Perhaps a better way of effecting carpet bombing results would be to disorganize the units and put them temporarily out of supply (say for the impulse). This would mean that instead of the unit disappearing completely off the map, they would be reduced to 1 or 3 strength points and vulnerable to attacks (even overruns) during the later phases of the impulse. This way, carpet bombed units could recover completely if there were no land units to attack them.
Just an idea.
My take at a different Carpet Bombing rule :
Carpet Bombing is now performed at the same time as
ground support in the sequence of play, but still is a different mission with different interceptions, etc…
Carpet bombing planes still use their strategic bombing factors, and still use the regular carpet bombing rules, except that only land units can suffer from Carpet Bombing and that each * (star) obtained on the strategic bombing table give the attacker an added bonus to the attack, +2 for a Corps, +1 for a DIV.
The randomly chosen Corps or DIV is then also destroyed if shattered by the normal combat result, or shattered if suffered no results by the normal combat result, or simply retreated.
Has this change been incoporated into MWIF? [:)]
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 2:15 am
by paulderynck
ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Perhaps a better way of effecting carpet bombing results would be to disorganize the units and put them temporarily out of supply (say for the impulse). This would mean that instead of the unit disappearing completely off the map, they would be reduced to 1 or 3 strength points and vulnerable to attacks (even overruns) during the later phases of the impulse. This way, carpet bombed units could recover completely if there were no land units to attack them.
Just an idea.
My take at a different Carpet Bombing rule :
Carpet Bombing is now performed at the same time as
ground support in the sequence of play, but still is a different mission with different interceptions, etc…
Carpet bombing planes still use their strategic bombing factors, and still use the regular carpet bombing rules, except that only land units can suffer from Carpet Bombing and that each * (star) obtained on the strategic bombing table give the attacker an added bonus to the attack, +2 for a Corps, +1 for a DIV.
The randomly chosen Corps or DIV is then also destroyed if shattered by the normal combat result, or shattered if suffered no results by the normal combat result, or simply retreated.
Has this change been incoporated into MWIF? [:)]
No.
RE: A Call To Arms
Posted: Wed Apr 22, 2009 3:31 am
by Shannon V. OKeets
ORIGINAL: Zorachus99
ORIGINAL: Froonp
ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets
Perhaps a better way of effecting carpet bombing results would be to disorganize the units and put them temporarily out of supply (say for the impulse). This would mean that instead of the unit disappearing completely off the map, they would be reduced to 1 or 3 strength points and vulnerable to attacks (even overruns) during the later phases of the impulse. This way, carpet bombed units could recover completely if there were no land units to attack them.
Just an idea.
My take at a different Carpet Bombing rule :
Carpet Bombing is now performed at the same time as
ground support in the sequence of play, but still is a different mission with different interceptions, etc…
Carpet bombing planes still use their strategic bombing factors, and still use the regular carpet bombing rules, except that only land units can suffer from Carpet Bombing and that each * (star) obtained on the strategic bombing table give the attacker an added bonus to the attack, +2 for a Corps, +1 for a DIV.
The randomly chosen Corps or DIV is then also destroyed if shattered by the normal combat result, or shattered if suffered no results by the normal combat result, or simply retreated.
Has this change been incoporated into MWIF? [:)]
As Paul said, Nope.
Carpet bombing in MWIF is exactly what it is in WIF FE (RAW). I don't think I changed a single word from RAW when I wrote RAC for carpet bombing.