Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: TheElf

ORIGINAL: pad152

I'm some what suprised the option to select a pilot when getting a pilot replacement wasn't implemented, I always throught it was odd that you can get an ace when getting a replacement for a Glen then have to settle with average pilot when filling out your carrier air groups! All the training in the world doesn't mean anything if you can't get the best pilots for your carrier air groups.[8|]

Right now there is no capability to specify a specific pilot as a replacement.

This sounds like a new rule for AE, get your carrier replacement pilots first(sorting of Air to Air rating of pilots) means the best rated pilot will always be the first replacement pilot!

ORIGINAL: Tomcat

The training command looks like an exciting addition to the game that I will want to take full advantage of, but I think the manual does not adequately explain it. Given the time it takes to set up a game and properly execute each turn we could easily be hundreds of hours into a game only to find out that there was something about the training command we guessed wrong on.

Possibly. Remember, first and foremost it is a sanctuary (think R&R) for your elite pilots. Secondarily it was thought that there should be SOME benefit to taking elite pilots of combat orders, but we don't want to skew their benefits so much as to make it a cheat or a loophole for drastically altering reality.

Let me ask a few of the questions that have been on my mind in the hope of not having to understand training command through hundreds of hours of learning by trial and error:

ok...

1) can I take an ordinary unit, say a stateside based air unit, and turn it into a training command? If not, how do I create training units?

No. The training command, as an AE Feature, is not an air unit. It is a holding pen. You can view TC pilots in the reserve pool. Their status will list them as TC pilots. You will always have the old WitP on-map training possibility, but this uses supply and subjects pilots to ops losses or even accidental combat encounters.

2) should I establish a training command for each type of air mission since the pilots seem to be trained for specific types of planes and missions? That is, a training command for level bombers, one for fighters, one for torpedo bombers, etc.

This is not necessary as the TC pilots only affect trainees at their national average. The training they are getting is the same EXP gain that they got in the old replacement feature in WitP. The ONLY difference is that these pilots are broken out BEFORE they finish training as different classes in a 12 month curriculum. I wanted to do this so the degradation of IJN and IJAAF pilots over the course of the war might be more graduated rather than the sheer cliff we had before. It also gives the player an I dea how deeply he is cutting into the training of new pilots when he fills out combat units.

Is isn't NECESSARY to add pilots to the TC as instructors. Replacements will still get their national average training, how ever the pace at which this occurs is static. It is only when the need of replacements outweighs the pace at which they are created that it is necessary to add Instructors to the pool to help accelerate the training and shore up the end product's EXP.

3) How do I get pilots into a specific training command? If I click on something like "get replacement pilots" then presumably I would get pilots already in the reserve pool first, followed by pilots that are trained, etc. which is not what I want. I would like to select pilots in training or who are trained or perhaps even pilots in the replacement pool that are at a low level.

This is not a valid question as there is no specific training command. Only the TRAINING COMMAND. Replacements benefit only to their expected National average, and specific mission training is not trainable until they reach their operation units. THis is how the Japanese System worked.

4) How do I know when a pilot in a training command is sufficiently trained? Do I simply monitor the status of each pilot in a training command unit? Does the game give me an option to return a pilot to the replacement pool when he reaches a set level?

They will be added to the replacement pilot pool as generic, named pilots. They will not be fighter pilots or bomber pilots yet, just RPs....you do not control the delivery of RPs to the Replacement pool. You only control whether they are drawn straight from their class BEFORE completion of training and sent directly to the operation unit in question.

If there are no pilots in the reserve pool of the type you are requesting(Veterans orphaned in combat or rotated to the TC and ready to reutrn), no pilots in the replacement pool (new trained replacement pilots), then your clicking of the get pilot button will pull your pilot from the most senior class of pilots STILL in training. Ie. EARLY, and likely under-trained.

5) In the screenshot of the replacement pool on page 260 of the manual (sec. 16.3) I see a soviet pilot along with several US pilots. Can I have a training command unit train allied pilots as well as US pilots? Or, do I need seperate training commands for each nation?

That is likely a function of the fact that the Allies are the Allies and the Japs are the Japs. There can be no distinction due to the nature of the code. But the pilots and the nationalities will still train to their national average, no higher.

6) since the algorithm for automatically fetching pilots described on p. 260 seems to bypass the training command does this mean that pilots in a training command are ignored, even if it means that replacement pilots with lower skill levels are automatically selected when a group needs a pilot? I would like to think that I can use training commands as a sort of "grad school" with the understanding that pilots from there would be selected before the game fetches pilots out of lower training classes or pools.

Not at this time. Instructors are instructors, not combat pilots. When they finish their "tour" as an IP they may be returned to combat units as replacements. This is a delicate balance. My recommendation is that you do not front load you TC instructors too heavily as you my induce your own shortage of fully trained pilots. Remember that initially you do not HAVE to add pilots to the TC as instructors as you have a healthy, functioning TC at game start. It is only as a preemtive measure that you might consider building an core of elite pilots as a reserve force, or a reactive measure when you have a catastrophic loss like a Midway or Marianas Turkey shoot.

Note: This feature came to fruition late in the design phase. As such it did not get a the best treatment in the manual. I will provide information at a later date. Just remember that this is a supplementary, or optional feature and is not critical to the war effort. It is chrome with an effect, but you could conceivably play the game for years ad never need or want to touch it.

Elf,
thanks for the clarification on training command. I can see that I was way off in my understanding. I think this seciton in the manual confused me:
"Some groups can be defined as “Training Groups”. Not to be confused with groups on a mission
of Training. These Training Groups can be loaded up with pilots from the last few months of
the training roster, and be assigned training missions like any other group. But they cannot fly
combat missions."

By the way, love the picture in your signature section. I could probably find a use for her....

Just to be clear, a "training group" is a type of on-map air unit, not a part of the abstracted pilot replacement system.

A training group can only fly training missions or, if active, special attack (kamikaze) missions. A training group can be heavily overloaded with pilots - max size x 5 IIRC.

WitP:AE presently doesn't model operational training units explicitly, but we might go down that path in the future. Either way modders have the option of including such units should they wish. Indeed if one wanted to, modders could model the entire training system(-s) explicitly on-map.

ORIGINAL: timtom

Just to be clear, a "training group" is a type of on-map air unit, not a part of the abstracted pilot replacement system.

A training group can only fly training missions or, if active, special attack (kamikaze) missions. A training group can be heavily overloaded with pilots - max size x 5 IIRC.

WitP:AE presently doesn't model operational training units explicitly, but we might go down that path in the future. Either way modders have the option of including such units should they wish. Indeed if one wanted to, modders could model the entire training system(-s) explicitly on-map.

Ok, I see that I was mixing training groups and training command in my mind. Now, given that I can define a training group, can I define these as I go, or must they be defined as part of the scenario?

I assume I place pilots in the training group by asking for replacement pilots. If not, how do I get pilots in these groups?

Once pilots are in these training groups, how do I get them out again? Or, do I have to change the training group to a combat group?

Does the national average for new pilot experience change as the war goes on. It has been so long since I've powered up stock WITP, and in CHS 2.08 it has not changed at all. I'm in '44 and my USAAF pilts are averaging 45 exp as they arrive... 

ORIGINAL: Tomcat

Ok, I see that I was mixing training groups and training command in my mind. Now, given that I can define a training group, can I define these as I go, or must they be defined as part of the scenario?

I think part of the reason is that, in the same paragraph, it says that instructors can be pulled into the group. Not seeing how this happens if the instructor is doing a tour as an instructor or R&R. Elf's earlier description suggests that, once tasked as instructors, they are pretty much untouchable until their tour is over. The only reference to "Training Groups" is in that one paragraph, so there is no explanation of how this works whatsoever.

I'm not catching on, but then I'm dense. I'll hope Elf supplements at some point in the future; I think being able to see the actual game, the UI, and what happens when you push a button will answer a lot of the questions.

Byron,
I feel a little bit better after your comments. I was beginning to think that I had somehow flunked my IQ test and was afraid that somebody would inform on me to the place where I'm working on my PhD. Now I see that at least I'm in good company and maybe I'm not as dumb as I sound!

ORIGINAL: byron13

ORIGINAL: Tomcat

Ok, I see that I was mixing training groups and training command in my mind. Now, given that I can define a training group, can I define these as I go, or must they be defined as part of the scenario?

I think part of the reason is that, in the same paragraph, it says that instructors can be pulled into the group. Not seeing how this happens if the instructor is doing a tour as an instructor or R&R. Elf's earlier description suggests that, once tasked as instructors, they are pretty much untouchable until their tour is over. The only reference to "Training Groups" is in that one paragraph, so there is no explanation of how this works whatsoever.

I'm not catching on, but then I'm dense. I'll hope Elf supplements at some point in the future; I think being able to see the actual game, the UI, and what happens when you push a button will answer a lot of the questions.

Took a gander at the Japanese air groups and the editor...

Training Groups are defined in the editor and hence are Scenario specific designated by the scenario designer. The Japanese receive several Training groups all after October of 1944.

ORIGINAL: timtom

Just to be clear, a "training group" is a type of on-map air unit, not a part of the abstracted pilot replacement system.

A training group can only fly training missions or, if active, special attack (kamikaze) missions. A training group can be heavily overloaded with pilots - max size x 5 IIRC.

WitP:AE presently doesn't model operational training units explicitly, but we might go down that path in the future. Either way modders have the option of including such units should they wish. Indeed if one wanted to, modders could model the entire training system(-s) explicitly on-map.

ok, a training group is an on-map air unit. That seems clear so far. [:D] But now the question: when I can set every daitai to "training" anyway, why should I dedicate a unit as a training group? Is training in a training group faster? Better? Any difference?

ORIGINAL: castor troy

ORIGINAL: timtom

Just to be clear, a "training group" is a type of on-map air unit, not a part of the abstracted pilot replacement system.

A training group can only fly training missions or, if active, special attack (kamikaze) missions. A training group can be heavily overloaded with pilots - max size x 5 IIRC.

WitP:AE presently doesn't model operational training units explicitly, but we might go down that path in the future. Either way modders have the option of including such units should they wish. Indeed if one wanted to, modders could model the entire training system(-s) explicitly on-map.

ok, a training group is an on-map air unit. That seems clear so far. [:D] But now the question: when I can set every daitai to "training" anyway, why should I dedicate a unit as a training group? Is training in a training group faster? Better? Any difference?

You cannot set a group as a training group ...Training Groups are pre-determined by the scenario designer in the editor.

I think Castor's question was: does a Training Group, which has been pre-determined by the scenario designer in the editor, train pilots any faster or differently than setting a normal air unit's mission to "training" (instead of ASW, CAP, etc.)?

differently by not using supplies and not being subject to accidental combat encounters is how I read it.

I think it as also mentioned that Training Command does not suffer ops losses either.

Not entirely historical, considering for example Fire In The Sky and pilot comments about training losses..."one a day in Tampa Bay" etc. But that is different debate. [8D]

I am not on the air team but my tuppence worth is the Training Sqns defined on map arrive mostly post 44 for one reason only to allow them to be converted to kamikazes.
 
By having them on map they are available to reinforce standard air groups for these types of raids using obsolete aircraft

Still not sure I understand the on-map Training Groups (separate from either the off-map Training Command or normal Groups conducting "training"). I assume they are subject to ops losses. As Castor Troy asked, are they better at training than setting regular units to "training" and can you get the pilots out of these groups by some means, or are they really there as part of the air OOB to represent how the Japanese ended up using these groups as kamikazis.

whoops, cross post with Andy's answer...

I think the latter as they all arrive 44 but talk to the air team tghey will confirm

Now I do not understand: so do we have training squadrons (that we can load with 3X normal number of rookie pilots from TC) in which we can assign instructors and train them in some specific areas, or not? Can we assign a 27 aircraft squadron of Nates as training squadron? Load it with 80 pilots from TC with exp of 35. and then assign them maybe 2 veteran instructors to train them in air combat? And when some pilots in training reach desired levels of exp, we disband them from training squadron to named pilots pool and replace them with new fresh low exp pilots from TC ? It seems we don't really understand what is the use of training sqouadrons? To convert them to kamikazes?

ORIGINAL: CV Zuikaku

Now I do not understand: so do we have training squadrons (that we can load with 3X normal number of rookie pilots from TC) in which we can assign instructors and train them in some specific areas, or not? Can we assign a 27 aircraft squadron of Nates as training squadron? Load it with 80 pilots from TC with exp of 35. and then assign them maybe 2 veteran instructors to train them in air combat? And when some pilots in training reach desired levels of exp, we disband them from training squadron to named pilots pool and replace them with new fresh low exp pilots from TC ? It seems we don't really understand what is the use of training sqouadrons? To convert them to kamikazes?

Maybe what The Elf said clarifies this a bit:


This is not necessary as the TC pilots only affect trainees at their national average. The training they are getting is the same EXP gain that they got in the old replacement feature in WitP. The ONLY difference is that these pilots are broken out BEFORE they finish training as different classes in a 12 month curriculum. I wanted to do this so the degradation of IJN and IJAAF pilots over the course of the war might be more graduated rather than the sheer cliff we had before. It also gives the player an I dea how deeply he is cutting into the training of new pilots when he fills out combat units.

Is isn't NECESSARY to add pilots to the TC as instructors. Replacements will still get their national average training, how ever the pace at which this occurs is static. It is only when the need of replacements outweighs the pace at which they are created that it is necessary to add Instructors to the pool to help accelerate the training and shore up the end product's EXP.

ORIGINAL: TheElf
Note: This feature came to fruition late in the design phase. As such it did not get a the best treatment in the manual. I will provide information at a later date. Just remember that this is a supplementary, or optional feature and is not critical to the war effort. It is chrome with an effect, but you could conceivably play the game for years ad never need or want to touch it.

While I certainly want to know how both of these work, Elf has said that he'll provide more information. I think both the Training Command and Training Group concepts would only be used later in the war - or at least not in the first few months. Since neither are likely to be relevant to our AE games for quite a while, I suggest we let Elf provide a more detailed and comprehensive explanation at some point in the future rather than overloading him with a bunch of questions now. Plus, the explanation is likely to be better if it is all written at one time and in one place rather than as answers to a series of questions. I, for one, am not going to press further for an explanation right now and will trust that we'll be taken care of.