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RE: ETO

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 5:01 am
by Uxbridge
Added Suez and made Kuwait into a port. Now possible to move convoys and troop transports to those places (tests pending).

Might even create South Africa as an intermediate landing point in case there will be supply issues with transported units.

RE: ETO

Posted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:42 pm
by micheljq
I think the german had 2 divisions and maybe one brigade in North Africa. There were at all 10 italians divisions also. Well this is what wikipedia says.

In another thread it speaks about Lybia. That he simply did not have the infrastructures to support such a large army already. Rommel already had serious supplies/fuel problems, at times less than 50% of his panzers were operationnal, if not worst.

Having more german divisions could have change the day? Maybe so, this is a "whatif". But, if your soldiers are starving and your panzers cannot move because they have no fuel, even if you have 22 divisions, you can end up unable to be very operationnal.

About Turkey, Turkey declared war on Germany on the side of the allies in 1945, when it was obvious Germany was losing the war.

About attacking Turkey, I suppose Germany would have been able to take Istanbul. But what if the turkish army decided to move on the east shore of the Bosphore and fight? The capital is Ankara, deep in the Anatolia, a hilly/mountenous region, a little like the Caucasus. I not do think the german panzers would have been of a great help in this region. Submitting Turkey could have been a long and tenuous campaign in itself, and pray that Stalin would not decide to help the turkish and send troops in Anatolia too.

RE: ETO

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 12:56 pm
by Uxbridge
Have tried transporting units to Kuwait and Suez. Seems to work, so this change stays.

RE: ETO

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 1:04 pm
by Uxbridge
ORIGINAL: micheljq

I think the german had 2 divisions and maybe one brigade in North Africa. There were at all 10 italians divisions also. Well this is what wikipedia says.

In another thread it speaks about Lybia. That he simply did not have the infrastructures to support such a large army already. Rommel already had serious supplies/fuel problems, at times less than 50% of his panzers were operationnal, if not worst.

Having more german divisions could have change the day? Maybe so, this is a "whatif". But, if your soldiers are starving and your panzers cannot move because they have no fuel, even if you have 22 divisions, you can end up unable to be very operationnal.

About Turkey, Turkey declared war on Germany on the side of the allies in 1945, when it was obvious Germany was losing the war.

About attacking Turkey, I suppose Germany would have been able to take Istanbul. But what if the turkish army decided to move on the east shore of the Bosphore and fight? The capital is Ankara, deep in the Anatolia, a hilly/mountenous region, a little like the Caucasus. I not do think the german panzers would have been of a great help in this region. Submitting Turkey could have been a long and tenuous campaign in itself, and pray that Stalin would not decide to help the turkish and send troops in Anatolia too.

If Rommel had 20 German divisions in NA, Malta would surely be a problem. Anyway it was impossible logistics-wise.

Turkey will be very difficult to subdue, I think. But not impossible.

RE: ETO

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 4:20 pm
by Hairog
ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

Have tried transporting units to Kuwait and Suez. Seems to work, so this change stays.

Excellent option thank you.

We'll have to agree to disagree about the Axis being able to take Malta, turn the Med into an Axis lake and supply another 1 or even 2 German divisions in NA. All I'm asking for is the chance to try it out without being hindered by what I consider to be a "house rule".

By the way another historian agrees with my take on the subject. John Keegan wrote a short "what if" article entitled "How Hitler Could have Won the War, The Drive for the Middle East, 1941". If your not familiar with Mr. Keegan you should google him and read his books.

Go to this website if your interested in Keegan's article

http://www.unmuseum.org/hitlerwins.htm

A quote from a review of Bevin Alexander's book...

"Most Americans and British would like to think that Hitler was defeated by the tenacity and determination of the United States and the British Empire. Some may even concede that the Russians had something to do with it as well. But the fact of the matter is no one really defeated Hitler - Hitler defeated himself.

Throughout the war, Hitler had opportunities of sealing his victory. He really could have conquered the entire world. So what happened? That's what this book is about. And this book does a great job of pointing out where Hitler messed up and what could have happened if he had chosen a different path.

Find out what would have happened if Hitler had: Finished off England from the start.
- Given Rommel the troops he requested in North Africa.
- Waited to attack Russia.
- Conquered the Middle East.
- And many other unnerving possibilities."









RE: ETO

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:00 pm
by Uxbridge
Well, I think we could agree to disagree on this one. [:)]
 
When it comes to books and articles, I have myself written a book about this. During the year I did that, I spent hours on end studying figures regarding Rommel's supply problem. I'm therefore unshakeable when it comes to this. But since I needed about 30 to 40 pages in the book to describe this issue alone, I will not try to re-do it here.
 
When it comes to home rules, however; you can simply disregard this one and play as you see fit. No problem. [;)]

RE: ETO

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:23 pm
by Leeds
Is this mod available for download?

Would love to try it out!

Thanks

RE: ETO

Posted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:35 pm
by Uxbridge
Not yet. I never seem to be finished with it.

RE: ETO

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:29 am
by Hairog
ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

Well, I think we could agree to disagree on this one. [:)]

When it comes to books and articles, I have myself written a book about this. During the year I did that, I spent hours on end studying figures regarding Rommel's supply problem. I'm therefore unshakeable when it comes to this. But since I needed about 30 to 40 pages in the book to describe this issue alone, I will not try to re-do it here.

When it comes to home rules, however; you can simply disregard this one and play as you see fit. No problem. [;)]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but is your book still in print and second is it in English? It sounds like something I would love to read. [&o]

Just a few more questions if I may? Did you analysis come to the conclusion that there is no way the Axis could have taken Malta in 1941? Second if they did take Malta could they not have supplied Rommel properly with air cover from the Luftwaffe and the Italian Navy? [&:]

This has always been a big "what if" for me as I guess it has been for you. I don't know why I'm so fascinated with this idea of Hitler going through the Mideast to back door Russia. Maybe I was an Italian soldier in NA in a past life or something...but wait I'm also fascinated by the P38-Lightning. [8|]

RE: ETO

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:59 am
by Flaviusx
Hairog, check out Martin van Creveld's Supplying War. (Which Uxbridge here used as a reference.) It's pretty much the final word on this subject. (The chapter on allied logistics in 1944 is also extremely good reading.)
 
 

RE: ETO

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:06 am
by Uxbridge
ORIGINAL: Hairog

ORIGINAL: Uxbridge

Well, I think we could agree to disagree on this one. [:)]

When it comes to books and articles, I have myself written a book about this. During the year I did that, I spent hours on end studying figures regarding Rommel's supply problem. I'm therefore unshakeable when it comes to this. But since I needed about 30 to 40 pages in the book to describe this issue alone, I will not try to re-do it here.

When it comes to home rules, however; you can simply disregard this one and play as you see fit. No problem. [;)]

I don't mean to beat a dead horse but is your book still in print and second is it in English? It sounds like something I would love to read. [&o]

Just a few more questions if I may? Did you analysis come to the conclusion that there is no way the Axis could have taken Malta in 1941? Second if they did take Malta could they not have supplied Rommel properly with air cover from the Luftwaffe and the Italian Navy? [&:]

This has always been a big "what if" for me as I guess it has been for you. I don't know why I'm so fascinated with this idea of Hitler going through the Mideast to back door Russia. Maybe I was an Italian soldier in NA in a past life or something...but wait I'm also fascinated by the P38-Lightning. [8|]

No, the book is in Swedish only, and as of now, there's no indication of it ever being otherwise. Casemate has published some of my/our works. If you send them a mail asking if they have plans for a translation, they might take the hint. [:)]

There's a little about the creation of the book here: Malta. Use Google translate. Not much about the book's contents, but maybe of some interest. Otherwise I also recommend van Creeveld.

When it comes to your questions, the answers is (1) Yes, they could, and (2) No, they couldn't. It’s really tricky to explain everything about NA, because every answer leads to a new question. But I will take some time here to make a crude example of the entire dilemma.

Let’s call in an imaginary mailman to help us. This mailman is supposed to deliver 4 parcels to 4 adresses each day (each adress representing a stretch of distance that the supply units have to travel). The recievers of these parcels has their houses in a such a way that he has to walk in one straight direction to deliver them (NA coastal road), and then head back home in the opposite, straight direction. Therefore, there’s no way he can shorten his path by altering the route.

Above this, he has to eat 10 apples a day (troop supplies), lest he will die. So he buys apples (arms, ammo, vehicles, fuel, food, water and spare parts) from the local grocery (Italy), which in turn have to deliver them to his house (Tripoli).

To make the entire work more difficult, we have a number of angry dogs in the mailman’s neighbourhood (Malta air and naval units), that always chase the grocery delivery boy, causing some of the apples to get lost en route.


Now let’s first state some facts that can’t be altered:

1. The grocery (Italian outgoing ports) has an upper limit of 40 apples

2. The door at the mailman’s house (recieving ports in NA, foremost Tripoli) has an upper limit of 15 apples

3. The mailman has to eat 2 apples each morning at home (Italian population and Axis service personel in NA) or he will die

4. During his work, the mailman traverse 4 suburban areas, fourth and back, thus he has to traverse all areas, even the last one, twice (areas represent: stretches Tripoli to Sirte/el Agheila; Sirte/el Agheila to Benghazi; Benghazi to Bardia; Bardia to el Alamein)

5. The mailman has to eat 2 apples for each suburban area he traverses, 1 apple in each direction, during his work (supplies to the troops) or he will die

6. The mailman’s carrying bag may only take as many as 5 apples (the Axis road transport capacity in NA; it may not be increased without deflating Barbarossa 1941 or 1942)


7. The angry dogs will take a number of apples each day. Contrary to all six points above, this amount of damage will vary.



So, let’s get cracking. First of all, the mailman needs 10 apples a day to survive. The grocery can give him 40, so there’s no problem here. But then he may only recieve 15 at his home. No sweat! This is still 5 more than he can eat. So the grocery sends him 15 apples a day just to make sure.

Now, when trying to deliver, the delivery boy is attacked by the dogs, which takes 3 apples a day from him. This is serious, isn’t it? Why, not really. The mailman still needs only ten apples; so his stock will rise with 2 each day, despite the menacing creatures.

Now the mailman gets ready to do his work, and this is where the problem starts. He eats his 2 morning apples, finding them tasty and nutritious. Then he packs 5 apples in his bag and happily goes to work. Regretably, having delivered the 4 parcels and turning back, the mailman finds himself without apples when homebound in area 3, where he falls to the pavement, stone dead. Is this true?

No, it didn’t really happen this way. The mailman was of the smarter sort. He realized that he would need apples to his home journey as well, and stopped in the second area, only delivering to the first 2 adresses. This action saves him. But he hasn’t been able to fulfill his job. The mailman’s name was Rommel and he never managed to deliver to this fourth adress called el Alamein.


Well, let’s use the above dilemma and change some of the settings. The facts, except 7. must remain the same.

1. First we ask the question: did Malta ruin Rommel’s campaign in NA. No it didn’t. He had his 10 apples and more than that.

2. Could Malta have ruined Rommel’s campaign in NA if the loss of apples were higher? Yes, if it had taken more than 5 apples a day, it would have ruined it, regardless of other things.

3. Would Rommel’s situation have improved if Malta hadn’t been? No, he had his 10 apples and couldn’t eat more.

4. Suppose there were 2 mailmen (doubling number of German troops); would that have helped? No, it wouldn’t. The door limit alone would have seen one of the mailmen dead.

5. if we don’t double them, but increase the first mailman slightly in size; let’s say making him 1,2 times of a mailman, could he then had made it? No, he still only had the capacity for 5 apples in his bag, so he could still only reach 2 adresses, and barely that since he now had to eat 2,4 apples for each adress.


This is only a very rough example of the the supply problems facing the Germans, but in essence it was the dilemma of NA. Think it through a number of times. [;)]


That’s for the desert campaign; why you have an interest in P-38s, I can supply you with no psychological explanation. [:D]

RE: ETO

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 4:29 pm
by Hairog
Excellent post Uxbridge thank you so much and I see and I concede the over whelming logic of your points [&o]

... except for the caveat you offered in number 6.

I believe that this point is the key to the matter.

"6. The mailman’s carrying bag may only take as many as 5 apples (the Axis road transport capacity in NA; it may not be increased without deflating Barbarossa 1941 - 1942)."

What if there was no Barbarossa in 1941? That's a huge "but" to this "what if". I agree Barbarossa and winning NA in 1941 could not be done as you pointed out so well. What I and the authors I have sited want to explore is...
1. if Hitler had forgone the attack on the Soviet empire in 1941?
2. Could Rommel have been given the tools he needed to win?
3. Could the axis hoards have rolled through the Balkans/Turkey and been ready for a two front Barbarossa in 1942?

That to me is the great "what if" of WWII.

RE: ETO

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:29 pm
by Uxbridge
Won't comment on the Turkey issue; haven't studied that. But I think that the railroads running into this country is totally inadequate to sustain an operation of this size. But I wouldn't really know.

The Italians had about 7000 transport vehicles in NA. To this the Germans transported about 3000 more to NA. About a third of these were constantly in the repair shops. After Crusader, where Rommel lost a number of vehicles, he demanded 8000 new from Europe, but this request was flatly turned down. There were negitiations to move a couple of thousand French vehicles from Vichy-held NA, but I don't think more than 900 were ever delivered (taken entirely from memory).

Given time, maybe Rommel could have had his vehicles. But it's far from certain. The Axis stocks of fuel was going down. Regia Marina could hardly sail because of lack of fuel oil, so the Italian navy couldn't operate. If Regia Marina made a few sorties, the entire transport system to Tripoli would have been halted. Assume, given an extra year to prepare, Rommel had taken Alexandria. Then maybe another half a year before the Germans had found the means to take the oil back to Europe, refine it, have all the vehicles moved to NA earlier back over the Med and be ready to launch Barbarossa. Then they would have lost several years to USSR, USA and UK to rearm and strengthen their forces. And if Rommel would have struck north, through the Levant into Caucasus, he would have faced supply conditions possibly even more attrocious than those facing him in NA.

Nope, if Hitler wanted to have USSR, he would never get a better chance than 1941.


RE: ETO

Posted: Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:51 pm
by Hairog
Very clear and concise. Thank you very much for your time and effort. This was a great discussion for me and I really appreciate it.

Thank you.

RE: ETO

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:10 pm
by Tomokatu
A great discussion for me to lurk and observe, too.
Thank you for all your research[&o] Uxbridge, and for sharing with us.

RE: ETO

Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2009 8:29 pm
by Uxbridge
You're welcome.