Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: JWE
Just think of them as nice little garnishes, to far away places, that will be eaten along with the main course.

Great description. [:D]

So, will they be ships? If so, can they move? I hope not.

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Great description. [:D]
So, will they be ships? If so, can they move? I hope not.

Thanks. Yes. Kinda. Hope springs eternal.

The early stuff is as static as we can make it consistent with "technical" towability. They can be sunk. They have speed 1, endurance 10. So if any idiot yahoo wants to play and move them somewhere else, more power to them, they will get what they deserve. The later war stuff has speed and endurance that reflects its real life 'towability'.

So what you get on opening day, is what you get; unless you are stupid. Stuff that comes in, later war, is assumed to include a certain proportion of those gnarly USN-ATs (had to do something with those boats, why not model them as tugs, yeah?).

The low speed of the ARDs exposes them to considerable risk when they are moved. The slower, the riskier. Think seeing messages like: "breaks tow line and runs agound", "hits reef and is lost", "founders under tow".

So it's not just a matter of moving slowly, there's a very good chance of never arriving. Those 1-knotters should pretty much stay where there originally arrived. You might get by with moving them a hex or two....

Very nice.  So, is the plan for this to be implemented in the stock game of "Da Babes" mod?

Very nice.  So, is the plan for this to be implemented in the stock game or "Da Babes" mod?

I think they wrote earlier that elements of this mod will be in Patch II

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


The low speed of the ARDs exposes them to considerable risk when they are moved. The slower, the riskier. Think seeing messages like: "breaks tow line and runs agound", "hits reef and is lost", "founders under tow".

So it's not just a matter of moving slowly, there's a very good chance of never arriving. Those 1-knotters should pretty much stay where there originally arrived. You might get by with moving them a hex or two....

Actually, the ARD,s were composed of sections that could be added or subtracted as needed. when they were moved trey were broken down in to these sections and towed, with not much more complication than towing a large barge. The smaller Aux Docks resembled ships, and again were not towed with great difficulty.

ORIGINAL: AlaskanWarrior

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


The low speed of the ARDs exposes them to considerable risk when they are moved. The slower, the riskier. Think seeing messages like: "breaks tow line and runs agound", "hits reef and is lost", "founders under tow".

So it's not just a matter of moving slowly, there's a very good chance of never arriving. Those 1-knotters should pretty much stay where there originally arrived. You might get by with moving them a hex or two....

Actually, the ARD,s were composed of sections that could be added or subtracted as needed. when they were moved trey were broken down in to these sections and towed, with not much more complication than towing a large barge. The smaller Aux Docks resembled ships, and again were not towed with great difficulty.

Everything that you say is true, but we wanted to emulate the great difficulty of moving these units through enemy contested waters. YFD-1, AFD-9 and AFD-10 were all scuttled rather than towed out from the Philippines and Singapore. We simply did not want players to be able to easily rescue such vessels. That is why we came up with the difference in speeds and the increased chance of loss when speed-one units were moved.

ARD, incidentally, is the proper designation for the units with enclosed bows. AFD might have been a better general term, but we decided on ARD because it was reasonably correct and started with AR.

After some more digging, I've found many places not on map with graving docks, several with merchant and naval launching slips, and several more locations that have 'Marine Machine Production' (that says ship engines to me).

ORIGINAL: Shark7

After some more digging, I've found many places not on map with graving docks, several with merchant and naval launching slips, and several more locations that have 'Marine Machine Production' (that says ship engines to me).

Thanks. These should be included in the Shipyards defined at a base, not in Floating Drydocks (which are ships, ARDs). If you think there are missing facilities of the Shipyard type, please post them.

We might want to be careful with adding "yards". Doing hull repairs to a merchant or small warship could be done just about anywhere with welding rods and electricity. If you have a tender, they can fix most of the systems with what they had onboard. (Thank god for the machine shop and foundry) What concerns me if more locations are added that really were just a place that a tramp steamer went to for its hull to be scrapped, it would be nice for who ever held that location, but is the program smart enough to know that repairs are not possible?

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Shark7

After some more digging, I've found many places not on map with graving docks, several with merchant and naval launching slips, and several more locations that have 'Marine Machine Production' (that says ship engines to me).

Thanks. These should be included in the Shipyards defined at a base, not in Floating Drydocks (which are ships, ARDs). If you think there are missing facilities of the Shipyard type, please post them.

I have found a reference about a 150 feet drydock in Bangkok. Built in wood, the Dry Dock No1 was managed by Royal Thai Navy between 1914 and 1946.

Most of the ones I found were described as 'drydocks' so they would be mostly repair facilities. However, there were 'launching slips' in several places. Many for Thornycraft which would only be suitable for small combatants from MTBs up to DDs.

The real question is: What exactly is a launching slip used for? My understanding is that a launching slip is for hull construction, am I incorrect in that assumption?

ORIGINAL: oldman45
We might want to be careful with adding "yards". Doing hull repairs to a merchant or small warship could be done just about anywhere with welding rods and electricity. If you have a tender, they can fix most of the systems with what they had onboard. (Thank god for the machine shop and foundry) What concerns me if more locations are added that really were just a place that a tramp steamer went to for its hull to be scrapped, it would be nice for who ever held that location, but is the program smart enough to know that repairs are not possible?

No, the engine ain’t that bright, and there is another area of concern in adding yards. Japan is able to invest HI and stuff, and increase its various yard sizes. A good idea, since when Japan captures a base with a yard, the yard capacity is cut in half, and Japan has to build it back up. But it’s not a good idea to allow for the possibility of a 100,000 ton shipyard on Bafungoo Island. So, sorry but … no tuna boat shipyards.

This is the main reason that more attention is paid to Allied ARDs. Allies cannot build up any shipyards, so some means has to be provided for modeling something like the increasing capability of Tulagi up to the scale of Ulithi.

Here’s a selection of the Allied ARDs. Top left is the ABSD (Advance Base Section Dock). This is the dude that was done in sections (maybe that’s why they called it a section dock?) towed across the pacific and assembled where needed. Next is what we call an AFDM (Auxiliary Floading Dock Medium). Actually representative of several models – there’s AFDMs, AFDs, AFDLs, ARDMs, AFDBs (1/4, ½, ¾ of an ASDB), woof. Then what we call an AFDS (Auxiliary Floading Dock Small). Basically AFD, AFDL, ARD types. Some, but not all, are the enclosed bow ARD types. These have some speed and endurance to simulate the prevalence of USN Fleet Tugs that schlepped them about.

On the right are the YFDs (Yard Floating Docks – and Medium and Small). These are static, speed-1, endurance-10, and don’t go nowhere. Yeah, sure, they were originally towed into place and were “technically” towable somewhere else, but heck. These are the Dewey in Manila, the KMSv-3 in Soerabaja, the KvMsv at Tlitjap, and a couple of dinks at Tandjong-Priok.

AFD designation is a bit confusing because the USN used it too, but we take it to mean Admiralty Floating Dock. There were three flavors of those, but we just use the equivalent USN specs and pics.

Wonderful, ain't it?

ORIGINAL: Skyland
I have found a reference about a 150 feet drydock in Bangkok. Built in wood, the Dry Dock No1 was managed by Royal Thai Navy between 1914 and 1946.

Think 150 feet is a bit small for the game, Skyland. Sounds like something to service very small auxiliaries. Your basic (on the bigger side) fishing trawler was on the order of 130 to 150 feet; suggests lift capacity was around 750 displacement tons, maybe (stretching it) 1000. Being of wood, it probably wouldn't have topside scantling for crane rails and such.

What we're looking for is steel (iron) floating docks, with at least a 2000 displacement ton lift capacity. Suggests perhaps at least 250 feet in length (including lip overhang).

Keep going Skyland. You have found a lot of very useful stuff so far. Thank you.

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Skyland
I have found a reference about a 150 feet drydock in Bangkok. Built in wood, the Dry Dock No1 was managed by Royal Thai Navy between 1914 and 1946.

Think 150 feet is a bit small for the game, Skyland. Sounds like something to service very small auxiliaries. Your basic (on the bigger side) fishing trawler was on the order of 130 to 150 feet; suggests lift capacity was around 750 displacement tons, maybe (stretching it) 1000. Being of wood, it probably wouldn't have topside scantling for crane rails and such.

What we're looking for is steel (iron) floating docks, with at least a 2000 displacement ton lift capacity. Suggests perhaps at least 250 feet in length (including lip overhang).

Keep going Skyland. You have found a lot of very useful stuff so far. Thank you.

Seems like it would suit the needs of the RTN quite well, given that they used largely very small combatants. Only Sri Ayuthia, Thonburi, Phra Ruang, Maeklong and Taksin would have required a bigger dry dock, and those ships were apparently sent to Japan for servicing. The rest of the ships of the RTN could easily be lifted by a 750 ton dry dock.

This dock does seem more like a graving dock for the cleaning and repainting of hulls rather than a full repair dock however.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Wonderful, ain't it?

I do love the toys!!

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: Mike Solli
Great description. [:D]
So, will they be ships? If so, can they move? I hope not.

Thanks. Yes. Kinda. Hope springs eternal.

The early stuff is as static as we can make it consistent with "technical" towability. They can be sunk. They have speed 1, endurance 10. So if any idiot yahoo wants to play and move them somewhere else, more power to them, they will get what they deserve. The later war stuff has speed and endurance that reflects its real life 'towability'.

So what you get on opening day, is what you get; unless you are stupid. Stuff that comes in, later war, is assumed to include a certain proportion of those gnarly USN-ATs (had to do something with those boats, why not model them as tugs, yeah?).

Damn glad to see you back.

ORIGINAL: Zebedee


Was the floating dock at Tsingtao which was destroyed in the siege of Russo-Japanese war ever replaced?

Very old topic, i know...

I've just found that this german 16,000t floating dock was salvaged by IJN and towed to Sasebo in 1916.
Any chance that it was still in use in 1941 ? I found no mention of it after 1916.