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RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:55 pm
by Admiral Scott
Then it would take a very agressive PT boat leader to close within 1,000 yds on a Transport TF during daylight hours, even with no escorts.
Or maybe he would attempt to launch his torps at extreme range hoping for a lucky hit.
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 8:56 pm
by ADB123
ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Has anybody thought about spending some pp's and putting agressive commanders in place? PT boat Captains were pretty much slected from colledge atheles (especially football) to ensure toughtness, good health and agressiveness. (or so I've read in a couple of places). You know that as Ensigns and JG's it certainly wasn't for their knowledge. [:D]
It's not good enough to put a good commander in charge of a PT TF, you have to spend the PPs to change the really bad PT boat captains too.
And there are LOTS of them - "30/30" skippers who are rated best to handle short run ferries.
Spend the PPs, build up a good PT TF with good commanders and good captiains, and you are almost there...
Just don't forget to place your PT TFs close enough to where you want them so that they can catch the enemy at night.
And oh yeah, try to have a lot of air search in the region too.
Sure it takes time and micromanagement, but you also have an option - disband your early game PTs and "re-assemble" them later on when you are in a better position to use them the way they were meant to be used - as nuisances.
Good luck -
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:06 pm
by mdiehl
Those claiming that "it just makes sense" that a single boat, in daylight, would charge in on a target from miles away really need to read this document.
Hmm. Well, on p.10 it does state that Torpedo Boats will make attacks in daylight on unescorted merchant vessels. It only mentions smoke screens when the doctrine discusses enemy fleet elements. Based on the doctrine, charging in on a sole merchie during broad daylight is the most likely outcome.
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:30 pm
by Bradley7735
ORIGINAL: Canoerebel
It seems like defensiveness is about equal to complaints at this point. I know people may tire of complaints - especially since some complaints are over the top, unkind, just plain wrong, or all three. But legit complaints are the only way we're going to feret out the problems wit the game and make it even better. So don't jump on folks who are simply giving an opinion.
I want to 2nd Canoerebel's note. A long while back, I thought dive bombers were broken. Mine couldn't hit crap. My first post was along the lines of "Dive Bombers suck", or something like that. Later, I noticed a post about level and glide bombing and thought that my sucky dive bombers were due to my bad orders. I posted a 2nd thread that was more along the lines of "my dive bombers are not working and I would like to know what settings I should be using." After that thread got some real good feedback, I realized my dive bombers were set way too high and were level bombing. Problem fixed.
The original poster to this thread probably needed to know that daylight attacks by PT's would most often result in the PT running. Done. Easy. Maybe he could have worded his thread a bit better.
Anyway, there's a lot of folks here who make some real good responses that help others. Most of those folks are the people who make and test this wonderful game.
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:30 pm
by DeriKuk
YMMV [8|]
One of my TFs - a CL and 6 DDs - had a run-in with a single PT boat near Luzon.
Result: One DD sunk; CL torpedoed and limping with 34 flotation damage (22 Major). The PT boat got away.
This was with 1096.
Now who says PT boat are neutered?
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 9:41 pm
by SuluSea
PTs out of the box were modelled as super weapons, glad it got toned down.
It would seem that unescorted shipping would be to the PT boats liking.
There's a Royal Navy Commander that will wreak some havoc escorted shipping ,atleast he did in my game, I had no success at all with the USN boats.
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:42 pm
by eMonticello
The devs really need to check the definitive
source for PT Boat activities.
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 10:50 pm
by stuman
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:24 pm
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: Dixie
AE dev team in decision that may actually be correct in historical basis shocker! [:D]
Film at 11.[:)]
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:30 pm
by stuman
ORIGINAL: eMonticello
The devs really need to check the definitive
source for PT Boat activities.
I watched that show religiously as a kid .
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:37 pm
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott
Then it would take a very agressive PT boat leader to close within 1,000 yds on a Transport TF during daylight hours, even with no escorts.
Or maybe he would attempt to launch his torps at extreme range hoping for a lucky hit.
If I was launching a torpedo first fielded in 1911, I think I'd walk it up to spitting distance and give it a cane.[:)]
Weapon specs are inherently dangerous. Just because a weapon can swim five miles doesn't mean it's a danger to anyone at that range. An AKL at five miles, height-of-eye maybe ten feet off the surface, in a swell, maybe some mist or fog or a squall, looks not unlike a fuzzy grain of dirty brown rice. At 19,000 yds--almost 10 miles--well, you'd be as well off throwing shoes at the thing as wasting good, taxpayer-provided fish.
An AKL in daylight could have nets out. It could have offloaded a motor whaleboat full of riflemen; sure, you can maybe take them out but they could ruin your whole day first. There could be an unseen gun emplacement on shore. It has a radio to call for help. And it can see you coming a LONG way out, even at 40 knots. PTs aren't magical, and they weren't crewed by men who wanted to commit suicide. They were more like B-movie assassins. Get in, backstab a defenseless kitten, get out.
As for flinging and running. torpedoes were rare and hard to get to the front, not to mention expensive. Do you know the paperwork you have to prepare when one is expended? And you DO have to fess up about your firing solution so the staff weenies can tell the admiral why you should be relieved for lack of command judgment.[8|]
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:37 pm
by jazman
ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
Too Strong!
Patch
Too Weak!
Patch
Loop
Should be easy to code, eh?
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:41 pm
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Those claiming that "it just makes sense" that a single boat, in daylight, would charge in on a target from miles away really need to read this document.
Hmm. Well, on p.10 it does state that Torpedo Boats will make attacks in daylight on unescorted merchant vessels. It only mentions smoke screens when the doctrine discusses enemy fleet elements. Based on the doctrine, charging in on a sole merchie during broad daylight is the most likely outcome.
The entire document presupposes that PT boats don't operate alone, however. They operated in units of four, building up to large forces in blocks. They were fighter squadrons, not really naval units.
Attacking in daylight depends on the tactical situation I think. If the traget was at sea, underway, and not alerted, probably fine. If it was at anchor, with unknown support units hidden, on call, or roving, probably not so smart to charge into a restricted anchorange all by your lonesome to half a mile from shore.
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Mon Dec 21, 2009 11:52 pm
by Bullwinkle58
It was. A good read. I didn't know the barges had armored enginerooms.
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:00 am
by AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: ADB123
ORIGINAL: AW1Steve
Has anybody thought about spending some pp's and putting agressive commanders in place? PT boat Captains were pretty much slected from colledge atheles (especially football) to ensure toughtness, good health and agressiveness. (or so I've read in a couple of places). You know that as Ensigns and JG's it certainly wasn't for their knowledge. [:D]
It's not good enough to put a good commander in charge of a PT TF, you have to spend the PPs to change the really bad PT boat captains too.
And there are LOTS of them - "30/30" skippers who are rated best to handle short run ferries.
Spend the PPs, build up a good PT TF with good commanders and good captiains, and you are almost there...
Just don't forget to place your PT TFs close enough to where you want them so that they can catch the enemy at night.
And oh yeah, try to have a lot of air search in the region too.
Sure it takes time and micromanagement, but you also have an option - disband your early game PTs and "re-assemble" them later on when you are in a better position to use them the way they were meant to be used - as nuisances.
Good luck -
Excellent point. And how many PP's does an Ensign or a JG cost? Probably a pitannce. [:)]
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:13 am
by stuman
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
It was. A good read. I didn't know the barges had armored enginerooms.
I noticed that too. Slow boats, but tougher than I had imagined. I would have hated to be on a PT , misjudge, get too close, only to find there was a 40 mm on board the barge !
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:21 am
by Buck Beach
ORIGINAL: Sardaukar
I agree, anyone with bit of intelligence would not serve as PT-boat Captain...[:D]
You are so bad
That's not very American. Opps, your not one of us are you?[:)]
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:28 am
by AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: stuman
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
It was. A good read. I didn't know the barges had armored enginerooms.
I noticed that too. Slow boats, but tougher than I had imagined. I would have hated to be on a PT , misjudge, get too close, only to find there was a 40 mm on board the barge !
AS I said , why do you think that they were commanded by Ensigns who were jocks! [:D]
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 12:45 am
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: stuman
ORIGINAL: eMonticello
The devs really need to check the definitive
source for PT Boat activities.
I watched that show religiously as a kid .
So, you wore a robe?
RE: neutered PT boats post 1095/1096
Posted: Tue Dec 22, 2009 1:34 am
by Shark7
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott
Then it would take a very agressive PT boat leader to close within 1,000 yds on a Transport TF during daylight hours, even with no escorts.
Or maybe he would attempt to launch his torps at extreme range hoping for a lucky hit.
If I was launching a torpedo first fielded in 1911, I think I'd walk it up to spitting distance and give it a cane.[:)]
Weapon specs are inherently dangerous. Just because a weapon can swim five miles doesn't mean it's a danger to anyone at that range. An AKL at five miles, height-of-eye maybe ten feet off the surface, in a swell, maybe some mist or fog or a squall, looks not unlike a fuzzy grain of dirty brown rice. At 19,000 yds--almost 10 miles--well, you'd be as well off throwing shoes at the thing as wasting good, taxpayer-provided fish.
An AKL in daylight could have nets out. It could have offloaded a motor whaleboat full of riflemen; sure, you can maybe take them out but they could ruin your whole day first. There could be an unseen gun emplacement on shore. It has a radio to call for help. And it can see you coming a LONG way out, even at 40 knots. PTs aren't magical, and they weren't crewed by men who wanted to commit suicide. They were more like B-movie assassins. Get in, backstab a defenseless kitten, get out.
As for flinging and running. torpedoes were rare and hard to get to the front, not to mention expensive. Do you know the paperwork you have to prepare when one is expended? And you DO have to fess up about your firing solution so the staff weenies can tell the admiral why you should be relieved for lack of command judgment.[8|]
The most important thing to remember that no weapon system is accurate past the range the operator can target. In WWII terms that means Eyeball Mk I in the early years and primitive radar sets in the middle advancing to the better sets at the end of the war. So in 12-41, do not expect to engage a ship at extreme ranges with any hope of hitting (or actually seeing the target in some cases).
And since PT boats don't have radar, visual is it. If the weather is bad or there is no moonlight, the PTs may never actually see the targets. They could have 100nm range torpedos in those conditions, and you engagement range would still be ~2500 yards or less.
So basically the PTs engagement range is limited not by the weapons systems, but by the eyesight of the commander and gunners.