Page 3 of 3
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 3:41 pm
by Rasputitsa
ORIGINAL: cavalry
BTW I think we should do away with the word gun and replace it with artillery or better still use the proper term for each nation
Cav
I would also prefer to see units named as ARTILLERY, although I see that the word GUN is used to separate from units with HOWITZER equipment. Perhaps ARTILLERY (GUN) and ARTILLERY (HOWITZER), if display space allows. [:)]
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 5:34 pm
by Capitaine
It's not clear to me that "gun" is an incorrect term for the units. As implied in Rasputitsa's post above, guns differ from howitzers, although both are artillery. Subsets of artillery.
That said, the historical nomenclature should be used in my opinion. Don't rethink what the army in question actually called the unit.
ETA: Looking briefly at a Barbarossa OOB, I find that "Gun Battalion" appears to be the game translation used for a 10cm "Kanonen-Abteilung" (as opposed to a Feldhaubitzen-Abt., or a Morser-Abt.), which is a subunit of an Artillerie Regiment. Unless players would prefer that the game adhere to the literal German, the translation appears fairly accurate to me.
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:57 pm
by jaw
ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa
ORIGINAL: cavalry
BTW I think we should do away with the word gun and replace it with artillery or better still use the proper term for each nation
Cav
I would also prefer to see units named as ARTILLERY, although I see that the word GUN is used to separate from units with HOWITZER equipment. Perhaps ARTILLERY (GUN) and ARTILLERY (HOWITZER), if display space allows. [:)]
The names you see in the display are their historical description (in English of course). These descriptions may or may not describe the actual weapons composing the unit.
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 7:59 pm
by Rasputitsa
ORIGINAL: Capitaine
It's not clear to me that "gun" is an incorrect term for the units. As implied in Rasputitsa's post above, guns differ from howitzers, although both are artillery. Subsets of artillery.
No implication intended that any interpretation is incorrect, it is a minor issue which words people are most comfortable with and I would go with whatever the developers consider is appropriate from the research that has been done. In the end words and symbols are not as important as gameplay.[:)]
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Wed Dec 23, 2009 9:12 pm
by critter
ORIGINAL: Joel Billings
Each German division or Soviet Corps (combat unit, not corps HQ) can have up to 3 support units directly attached. These units will always participate in combat with the unit it is attached to. Support units that are attached to a HQ may participate in combat if the leader of the HQ makes an initiative check and the HQ is within 5 hexes of a combat involving units reporting to the HQ (distance does not matter, it did at one time, but we removed that rule many months ago). In order to be committed from a HQ, support units must also normally pass a die(6)>support units already committed in order to be committed to a battle. In battles over light-urban and heavy-urban hexes, the defending support units must pass a die(18)>support units already committed in order to be committed to the battle. So 6 is the max support units from a HQ unless in urban terrain, in which case the max is 18.
My understanding is if you have 3 divisions with 3 support units each in a battle, you will have those 9 support units involved, along with the possibility of up to 6 more from HQs.
Makes sense now...U guys rock [&o]
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 7:10 am
by Silvanski
Am wondering... is there a system which prevents Romanian and Hungarian support units (if they exist in the game) from ending up in the same division? That would present ahistorical situations.... They both fought against the Soviets but given the chance would easily have taken on eachother. That's why their troops were kept separated in the field
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:28 am
by ComradeP
If divisions can have 3 support units attached, are all the German organic divisional support units abstracted into the division's strength?
As indicated earlier, a Panzer division would have an artillery regiment (3 battalions), a motorized pioneer battalion, a motorized FlaK battalion and some form of AT at battalion size. That's 6 support battalions attached to the division at standard paper strength. I'm assuming the Axis player could add 3 more on top of that?
The Soviet player is really going to feel the pain if a Panzer division attacks a Rifle division with a grand total of 6 artillery battalions, 4 of which heavier than 105mm.
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:16 am
by elmo3
ORIGINAL: ComradeP
If divisions can have 3 support units attached, are all the German organic divisional support units abstracted into the division's strength?
As indicated earlier, a Panzer division would have an artillery regiment (3 battalions), a motorized pioneer battalion, a motorized FlaK battalion and some form of AT at battalion size. That's 6 support battalions attached to the division at standard paper strength. I'm assuming the Axis player could add 3 more on top of that?
The Soviet player is really going to feel the pain if a Panzer division attacks a Rifle division with a grand total of 6 artillery battalions, 4 of which heavier than 105mm.
I'm not involved with the TO&E stuff so someone else on the team can correct me if necessary, but in looking at a typical Pz Division in '41 with no support units attached I do see artillery, Pioneers, SP flak, and AT guns listed. So I'd say yes the three support units you could attach would be in addition to the stuff you mention.
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Thu Dec 24, 2009 9:21 am
by Helpless
I'm not involved with the TO&E stuff so someone else on the team can correct me if necessary, but in looking at a typical Pz Division in '41 with no support units attached I do see artillery, Pioneers, SP flak, and AT guns listed. So I'd say yes the three support units you could attach would be in addition to the stuff you mention.
That's right, all divisional level support is included into TOE.
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 5:44 am
by vinnie71
ORIGINAL: elmo3
ORIGINAL: ComradeP
If divisions can have 3 support units attached, are all the German organic divisional support units abstracted into the division's strength?
As indicated earlier, a Panzer division would have an artillery regiment (3 battalions), a motorized pioneer battalion, a motorized FlaK battalion and some form of AT at battalion size. That's 6 support battalions attached to the division at standard paper strength. I'm assuming the Axis player could add 3 more on top of that?
The Soviet player is really going to feel the pain if a Panzer division attacks a Rifle division with a grand total of 6 artillery battalions, 4 of which heavier than 105mm.
I'm not involved with the TO&E stuff so someone else on the team can correct me if necessary, but in looking at a typical Pz Division in '41 with no support units attached I do see artillery, Pioneers, SP flak, and AT guns listed. So I'd say yes the three support units you could attach would be in addition to the stuff you mention.
Which is what I meant above. Eg Tiger battalions were attached to Panzer Divisions depending on the mission (excepting such units as the Grossdeutschland, Liebstandarte and Hermann Goering Pz Div which had integral Tiger Bat). The same would apply for the numerous Panzerjaeger/Jagdpanzer/Sturmgeschutz battalions or brigades, flak, Pioneer and artillery battalions vis-a-vis Infantry Div.
The Soviets had a more rigid control on such units. Artillery was held mostly centrally (a reversion to Napoleonic tactics if you ask me) with only token indipendent tank/SP battalions provided for added punch. If I remember correctly, even engineer units were held centrally.
BTW would Soviet Artillery Breaktrough divisions be implemented in game? If yes, will they be a unit like any other or show up as indipendent unit?
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 11:41 am
by elmo3
ORIGINAL: Offworlder
BTW would Soviet Artillery Breaktrough divisions be implemented in game? If yes, will they be a unit like any other or show up as indipendent unit?
Yes, they are in the game and they are represented on the map like other divisions.
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 12:13 pm
by ComradeP
BTW would Soviet Artillery Breaktrough divisions be implemented in game? If yes, will they be a unit like any other or show up as indipendent unit?
Artillery divisions showing up as independent units attachable to HQ's would be interesting, as that would mean you could attach around 240 guns and around 50 mortars to a HQ/Corps as a single attachment. That would make the people using pre-patch WitP:AE artillery deathstars blush.
Yes, they are in the game and they are represented on the map like other divisions.
Can they be combined into corps as they were historically from time to time?
Also: how are artillery divisions formed? By combining a number of existing artillery regiments/brigades into a greater whole?
Artillery being such a crucial asset for the Soviets, the system of combining smaller artillery units into bigger ones could cut down on a lot of micromanagement whilst also giving the Soviet player more strategic support options.
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 1:49 pm
by Rhetor
ORIGINAL: ComradeP
Artillery being such a crucial asset for the Soviets, the system of combining smaller artillery units into bigger ones could cut down on a lot of micromanagement whilst also giving the Soviet player more strategic support options.
Seconded.
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Sat Dec 26, 2009 9:09 pm
by vinnie71
My guess is that artillery divisions would come whole without need to combine units. From what I gather, these are no indipendent units and probably would not be attached to Corps commands but rather deployed either on the front or just behind the front...
RE: Indipendent Units
Posted: Sun Dec 27, 2009 10:06 am
by jaw
You are correct although the artillery divisions come as cadres and require several weeks to build up to strength.