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I second (or is that third) that motion.

To reopen the Nav Support issue again. The USN built an enormous number of yard support craft during the war. These varied from various types including lighters (powered and unpowered), crane ships, barracks ships, and various types of maintenance ships (aircraft, ICE, etc).

I would assume these devices would all be rolled into the Nav Support device. Is that correct?

Secondly, the question becomes how much of this type of unit was actually forward deployed vs used to augment the main bases like PH, SF, ECUSA, etc.

ORIGINAL: vettim89
To reopen the Nav Support issue again. The USN built an enormous number of yard support craft during the war. These varied from various types including lighters (powered and unpowered), crane ships, barracks ships, and various types of maintenance ships (aircraft, ICE, etc).

I would assume these devices would all be rolled into the Nav Support device. Is that correct?

Some of them are included in NavSup capability, yes. However it is more fair to say they are wrapped up in the Port Size. As a port grows larger it can do more things. Support craft of this type are implicit in a port’s increasing capability.

Secondly, the question becomes how much of this type of unit was actually forward deployed vs used to augment the main bases like PH, SF, ECUSA, etc.

The majority were augmentations to established bases, particularly to Naval Operating Bases. However, 14 mobile (deployable) Advanced Base Force units (aka Cubs) were created with a great deal of this capability. 4 large (deployable) Fleet Advanced Base Force units (aka Lions) were created to function much like mobile major Naval Operating Bases. Both types included floating drydocks as part of their establishment.

The Seabees instituted 30-40 “special” construction battalions, with stevedores, lighterage, maintenance shops, as well as base maintenance battalions that took over maintenance of ports and airfields after construction by regular Seabee Bns. These included at least dock maintenance and pontoon (lighterage) components.

The Army had 9 Engineer Boat & Shore Regiments in SWPac (making up the Amphibious Brigades). These were populated with LCM/LCVP/LCPR, as well as tank and artillery lighters.

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: vettim89
To reopen the Nav Support issue again. The USN built an enormous number of yard support craft during the war. These varied from various types including lighters (powered and unpowered), crane ships, barracks ships, and various types of maintenance ships (aircraft, ICE, etc).

I would assume these devices would all be rolled into the Nav Support device. Is that correct?

Some of them are included in NavSup capability, yes. However it is more fair to say they are wrapped up in the Port Size. As a port grows larger it can do more things. Support craft of this type are implicit in a port’s increasing capability.

Secondly, the question becomes how much of this type of unit was actually forward deployed vs used to augment the main bases like PH, SF, ECUSA, etc.

The majority were augmentations to established bases, particularly to Naval Operating Bases. However, 14 mobile (deployable) Advanced Base Force units (aka Cubs) were created with a great deal of this capability. 4 large (deployable) Fleet Advanced Base Force units (aka Lions) were created to function much like mobile major Naval Operating Bases. Both types included floating drydocks as part of their establishment.

The Seabees instituted 30-40 “special” construction battalions, with stevedores, lighterage, maintenance shops, as well as base maintenance battalions that took over maintenance of ports and airfields after construction by regular Seabee Bns. These included at least dock maintenance and pontoon (lighterage) components.

The Army had 9 Engineer Boat & Shore Regiments in SWPac (making up the Amphibious Brigades). These were populated with LCM/LCVP/LCPR, as well as tank and artillery lighters.

Very impressive research JWE. I am assuming that all this is represented in the stock scenarios by being spread out among the various BF's. I understand the problems with a complete redux of Nav Support as it relates to the AI. Just wondering how big a "Lion" and "Cub" BF ending up being in DBB? Also I suspect this kind of information is about impossible to collect for the Japanese. Did you just take a WAG at it?

ORIGINAL: JWE

ORIGINAL: vettim89
To reopen the Nav Support issue again. The USN built an enormous number of yard support craft during the war. These varied from various types including lighters (powered and unpowered), crane ships, barracks ships, and various types of maintenance ships (aircraft, ICE, etc).

I would assume these devices would all be rolled into the Nav Support device. Is that correct?

Some of them are included in NavSup capability, yes. However it is more fair to say they are wrapped up in the Port Size. As a port grows larger it can do more things. Support craft of this type are implicit in a port’s increasing capability.

Secondly, the question becomes how much of this type of unit was actually forward deployed vs used to augment the main bases like PH, SF, ECUSA, etc.

The majority were augmentations to established bases, particularly to Naval Operating Bases. However, 14 mobile (deployable) Advanced Base Force units (aka Cubs) were created with a great deal of this capability. 4 large (deployable) Fleet Advanced Base Force units (aka Lions) were created to function much like mobile major Naval Operating Bases. Both types included floating drydocks as part of their establishment.

The Seabees instituted 30-40 “special” construction battalions, with stevedores, lighterage, maintenance shops, as well as base maintenance battalions that took over maintenance of ports and airfields after construction by regular Seabee Bns. These included at least dock maintenance and pontoon (lighterage) components.

The Army had 9 Engineer Boat & Shore Regiments in SWPac (making up the Amphibious Brigades). These were populated with LCM/LCVP/LCPR, as well as tank and artillery lighters.

I am anxious to see how this all will work. I have been reviewing the changes with the Editor and have loaded the game and I like what I see. Only just holding off starting a game at least until you have a full (all fields) beta. I know it is a omnibus job so I am waiting patiently but am not playing AE at all at this point and I am going though withdrawal.[:)]

ORIGINAL: vettim89
Very impressive research JWE. I am assuming that all this is represented in the stock scenarios by being spread out among the various BF's. I understand the problems with a complete redux of Nav Support as it relates to the AI. Just wondering how big a "Lion" and "Cub" BF ending up being in DBB?

A Cub was about 3900 gobs altogether along with a couple AFDSs. Same in DBB, except you have to move the AFDSs yourself (they don't exactly 'come with'); roughly 126 NavSup, plus engineers, some AvSup, and other 'stuff'. Lions were about 12000 along with a couple ABSDs. Same in DBB. Roughly 438 NavSup, plus engineers, good AvSup, and other 'stuff'.

Also I suspect this kind of information is about impossible to collect for the Japanese. Did you just take a WAG at it?

Difficult, but not impossible. They have 'Shipping' Engineer Regiments (largish batalions) with a mix of Daihatsu/Shohatsu barges. 'Ship' battalions that did the load/unload grunt work (shipping engineers did the boat driving). They had Harbor/Port Transport companies (stevedores with lighters) and Harbor Commands (ad hoc, but at least a harbor master and a pontoon/dock maintenance company). All belonged to the Army, yep, the Army.

Navy had Harbor units in their Base Forces (some of them, anyway). Some (very few) also had a dedicated torpedo shop and some had ship maintenance units.

Well, the wild, wild, whacky, wonderful, world of Imperial Japanese forces. Ok, there was two (three or four) toes for everything – an administrative toe and an operational toe. And like EVERYTHING Japanese, they sliced and diced everything into ‘units’ (Kutai). A Kutai could be a short battalion, a long company, a platoon, or heck, a PO, 20 sailors and 4 barges.

An IJN BF is basically built from components (all components are Kutai, so some are bigger than others); the basic BF for servicing the assigned patrol vessels, a varying number of Naval Guard Units (in game as SNLF Garrison Units), a sub base/torpedo shop unit (there was 4 of these), AvSup for a 6-18 plane float/seaplane Kokutai (there was 6 of these), a Harbor Unit (a Kutai, anywhere from 61 to 493), and a Port/Dock Unit (also a Kutai, anywhere from 78 to 1206). Some also had an AA gun unit and some had a CD gun unit.

So we nerfed the resurrected bejezzus out of the IJN BFs, but made sure all the component parts existed as individual units (we had to create Port Units to make it work), so ya’ll can still build the 31st Special out of its pieces – but no more double counting. Think this actually works better for Japan since BFs can be built up where needed, and not necessarily where they were irl.

We made up IJN Port ‘Units’, and IJA Shipping Engineer ‘Units’ (company sized Kutai). We also removed all the AI secret NavSup cheat slots from units of this type. Also removed all AI secret AvSup cheat slots from all units we could find.

So far as AvSup goes, we also nerfed the resurrected bejezzus out of that too. We looked at how many planes the IJA/IJN gets and limited AvSup to those values. You get about half of what you are used to, but just (barely) enough to boogie. Same with the Allies, in case you were wondering.

I get lost on the post two...[:D]

So...what version will be the "only grognards" ? xD That's for me !

I guess Ulithi would be the best example of what would be a Lion, dry docks, repair ships, tankers and AE's?

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I guess Ulithi would be the best example of what would be a Lion, dry docks, repair ships, tankers and AE's?

You can read about them in Beans, Bullets, and Black Oil available on line at http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/BBB ... html#index

Jump to chapter six for a description of Lion 1 at Espiritu Santo: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/BBBO/BBBO-6.html

ORIGINAL: Mifune

Trust me I understand and can appreciate that (with an exclamation point). I am only saying what it sounds like on these forums. The synergy (not the talent) now is far less than it was a while ago with WitP. Not that I am saying that we need to come around the campfire and sing songs. But for myself, the Reluctant Admiral posts (not that I had any contribution with that project) and its formation to seeing how they worked together got me back interested in these forums again. That is just my opionion and I am not trying to start any fires, maybe some contemplation. And of course that is only my humble opion and of course your mileage may vary.

Thank you Sir for the comment regarding our Mod.

Having--as a complete novice--come to know the Editor, I cannot imagine people NOT wanting to jump in and give it a try. RA was all about that. I had a rough vision for a Mod but then it grew, transformed, and was improved by a hoste of contributors who lent their time and expertise to the project.

Think you guys are doing good work. Please keep it up and HAVE FUN! I have become a lurker in the Mods area and thought I'd comment just a bit. Now...back to lurking...

JWE,

If at some point you have time, I would love to see some screen shots of what a lion and cub BF look like

Thanks in advance

Tim

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I guess Ulithi would be the best example of what would be a Lion, dry docks, repair ships, tankers and AE's?

You can read about them in Beans, Bullets, and Black Oil available on line at http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/BBB ... html#index

Jump to chapter six for a description of Lion 1 at Espiritu Santo: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/BBBO/BBBO-6.html

Thanks much, that was a good read. Now if only we could get tug boats to work in the game [;)]

ORIGINAL: oldman45

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

ORIGINAL: oldman45

I guess Ulithi would be the best example of what would be a Lion, dry docks, repair ships, tankers and AE's?

You can read about them in Beans, Bullets, and Black Oil available on line at http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/BBB ... html#index

Jump to chapter six for a description of Lion 1 at Espiritu Santo: http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/USN/BBBO/BBBO-6.html

Thanks much, that was a good read. Now if only we could get tug boats to work in the game [;)]

Oy, the Crowley's might want a cut of the game for assist work in the binary Bay Area. [:D]

Anyway, I figure that book is the starting manual for allied players of Da Babe's big mod. Given the options open to Japan in this game, where would you stage Lion 1? I guess we will have to wait and see what's available at Auckland and Wellington. Tongatapu was a big base IRL, but in the game Vava'u has the better potential for naval base development.

ORIGINAL: vettim89
JWE,
If at some point you have time, I would love to see some screen shots of what a lion and cub BF look like

Thanks in advance
Tim

JWE, after looking at Beans, Bullets, and Black Oil, one of the things that happened when you had a Lion some where was an increase in storage, ie fuel. The game doesn't care about the types, but it does limit how many supplies an island can hold. Would there be a way that the lion could increase that number?

Another thing which may be a reach, but there were several hull types that were modified to support ship and avaition repair. I am refering to the Diesel-engine repair ships, landing craft-repair ships etc . Typing this makes me wonder if this is my turning point into becoming a gronard.... save me

After a lot of research, and a lot of help from our friends, John and I are happy to announce that Big Babes will include the Australian Army's 3rd Water Transport Group. Three water transport companies, two port operating companies, and ALC-40 and ALC-120 landing craft to equip them.

Working on the British landing craft too.

Grognards rejoice.

Awesome!

You guys are total Grognards!

Don,

I am left... speechless