Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Shark7

ORIGINAL: VarekRaith

ORIGINAL: Shark7




You do realize leaving the war and attack decisions on manual prevents this, right? They will still attack anything that is threatening one of your ships/planets/bases, but they will not go on the offensive. Never let the AI handle diplomacy or war, its fine for the mundane, tedious stuff, but not for stuff that requires your attention.

No, it doesn't. I've been playing with Automation set Expert since the game came out. Ships will auto-attack anything in the system they are in, regardless of the orders I give them. I don't want them to go after anything, they're on manual for that very reason!

I just tested this. I sent a lone destroyer, on manual, to a system with a pirate base. Said ship is on the other side of the system from the pirate base. Said ship attacks base, getting itself killed.

You set the ship to patrol the system and it attacked a PIRATE base. To me, it is behaving as it should. It spotted a pirate with is always considered hostile and attacked it. The real question is: If you send it to a neutral empire system, does it attack? If so, then that is a problem.

Tell me this is not the desired effect of the auto-attack code.
Ship has no mission. No automation of any kind. His last order was to stop.


Ship auto-attacks local pirate base. This base is of no threat to my ship. This system has no other assets of mine in it.


My entire point is that ships under my control should only do what I tell them to. The range at which it will auto-engage hostiles under manual is too large. If it has to jump to reach its automatically acquired target, it's too far. If it were to destroy the base, which it obviously won't, my ship will not return to where it originally was. This feature, as currently implemented, forces me to babysit my ships.

What makes it more annoying, is when I tell him to stop, he re-targets the base to attack it! If I tell him to stop again, he re-re-targets it! This means that I actually have no real control of the ship. It's partially automated, even under full manual control and automation options completely turned off.

Though the circumstances are somewhat different, I strongly second VarekRaith's point. I've made it myself in a bug report too.

Oddly enough, I don't have that happen. If I send it close, it will attack, but mine when on manual will not actively go chasing after stuff. You may need to reset your options...sounds like they have not released full control to you when they should have.

 
[font="times new roman"]Erik,[/font]
[font="times new roman"][font="times new roman"][/font][/font] 
[font="times new roman"][font="times new roman"]Thanks for  the response.  I'm not normally this passionate, but I like the game and not being able to use 2/3 of the attacks (invade, bombard, destroy) just plain sucks.  I'm not completely opposed to rebellion, as am frequently the toughest dog around having rock hard opponent isn't a bad thing.   I just hate when I keep losing half of my half after one or two bombardments or planet destructions. [/font][/font]
 
[font="times new roman"]Personally, I would love it, if after wiping out all of the AI's your empire automatically split in half until their was nothing left but dead irradiated worlds and smoking rubble.  It would breath some life into the late game.   Call it the Armageddon option. [/font] 
[font="times new roman"][font="times new roman"][/font][/font] 
[font="times new roman"][font="times new roman"]I like the auto-attack and auto-fuel.  Yea, what you describe happens, but to get around it just add fuel tanks to all of the designs.  I'm willing to put up with a little goofiness over having to refuel my manual ships.  The other thing to do is set the re-fuel threshold lower to like 1/5 of the fuel remaining.  Right now it seems a little high. [/font][/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]Something more annoying is the that your attack ships turn off their warp denial systems too quickly and allow half of the enemy freighters escape.   They should leave it on for about 5 seconds to give them time to reacquire a new target before they switch it off. [/font]
[font="times new roman"][/font] 
[font="times new roman"]Great game, I just want more tools to attack with. [/font]

Personally, I would love it, if after wiping out all of the AI's your empire automatically split in half until their was nothing left but dead irradiated worlds and smoking rubble. It would breath some life into the late game. Call it the Armageddon option.

please keep it as an OPTION because I don't want it.

I like the auto-attack and auto-fuel. Yea, what you describe happens, but to get around it just add fuel tanks to all of the designs. I'm willing to put up with a little goofiness over having to refuel my manual ships. The other thing to do is set the re-fuel threshold lower to like 1/5 of the fuel remaining. Right now it seems a little high.

I like the auto refuel and auto attack as well, but that doesn't mean that the problems described do not exist. Nor would lowering the fuel threshhold or putting more tanks be a solution.
the solution is more "exceptions" written into the code.
Make an exception for a ship invading a planet, make an exception for a ship colonizing a planet (that is, unless they will end up taking longer by not refueling...)
If attacking AI is off then ships should not auto engage beyond their weapons range. And there should be an option to "disable auto refuel and auto engage" on a specific ship (at least temporarily). So that you could overrule those.

The last thing we need is more micro management, but that doesn't mean that the current implementation is perfect and without flaws. And the above fixes will solve all the current flaws.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Oddly enough, I don't have that happen. If I send it close, it will attack, but mine when on manual will not actively go chasing after stuff. You may need to reset your options...sounds like they have not released full control to you when they should have.

Possible, I don't know. I've reset options. I've actually reinstalled. This happens enough to cause me to post about it. Perhaps it's just our play styles? Maybe it just doesn't allow the kind of micro I want? Maybe I'm crazy? [:D]

you know, I think I have noticed that some options don't "take" in current version. you sometimes have to turn it on-off-on again (or off-on-off).
I think that is a pretty new bug.

Like, sometimes my expansion planner will list planets in other empire's systems. I go into settings and its on DO NOT allow... I need to allow it, close the option menu (so it saves), then disallow it again for it to disappear.

Try setting it to full manual, continue game, full auto, continue game, then back into options and set it to whatever you actually want it to be. I think it might be related to version mixing (aka, loading older save in newer version of the game). not too sure though

ORIGINAL: taltamir

you know, I think I have noticed that some options don't "take" in current version. you sometimes have to turn it on-off-on again (or off-on-off).
I think that is a pretty new bug.

Like, sometimes my expansion planner will list planets in other empire's systems. I go into settings and its on DO NOT allow... I need to allow it, close the option menu (so it saves), then disallow it again for it to disappear.

Try setting it to full manual, continue game, full auto, continue game, then back into options and set it to whatever you actually want it to be. I think it might be related to version mixing (aka, loading older save in newer version of the game). not too sure though

Intriguing. I shall try that.
[:)]

How do we find our old save games when a new save game folder is created with this patch? I assume you select the folder in the load game window from your game directory?

ORIGINAL: gijas

How do we find our old save games when a new save game folder is created with this patch? I assume you select the folder in the load game window from your game directory?

the game lets you navigate anywhere you want with the save / load interface...
I save the games on D:\Users\User\Saved Games\Distant Worlds\1.0.4.6

The simple solution to the "ships do dumb stuff when told to do something else" fix is to do the following.
1. Never interrupt a manually given order to refuel.
2. Never chase a enemy ship when on manual: Only fire on targets of opportunity as they enter range.
3. Never run off to refuel while currently being watched on the camera.

I am quite surprised by this debate about automation of fleet behavior.

Distant Worlds, is a game of automation.

I dont share your point of vue on the "dumb stuff when told to do something else" thing. I mean, once you are aware of that, you anticipate and you adapt your playing style. Distant World gaming style is the opposite of micromanagement gaming style, and it fit very fine with its huge epic scale. Accept it or not, but it is how the game is designed.

That being said, I agree that minor tweaks could be done to improve some automation things, but...

The simple solution to the "ships do dumb stuff when told to do something else" fix is to do the following.
1. Never interrupt a manually given order to refuel.
2. Never chase a enemy ship when on manual: Only fire on targets of opportunity as they enter range.
3. Never run off to refuel while currently being watched on the camera.

... this, this is far too much, in my opinion.

ORIGINAL: Kruos

I am quite surprised by this debate about automation of fleet behavior.

Distant Worlds, is a game of automation.

I dont share your point of vue on the "dumb stuff when told to do something else" thing. I mean, once you are aware of that, you anticipate and you adapt your playing style. Distant World gaming style is the opposite of micromanagement gaming style, and it fit very fine with its huge epic scale. Accept it or not, but it is how the game is designed.

That being said, I agree that minor tweaks could be done to improve some automation things, but...

The simple solution to the "ships do dumb stuff when told to do something else" fix is to do the following.
1. Never interrupt a manually given order to refuel.
2. Never chase a enemy ship when on manual: Only fire on targets of opportunity as they enter range.
3. Never run off to refuel while currently being watched on the camera.

... this, this is far too much, in my opinion.

That's why you put your ships on auto. Why should I have to "deal with" my ships on manual being partially automated? Why even give us the choice of turning off automation in the first place? The dev is trying to cater to micro and macromanagers alike. As it stands now, I can't micro my ships. They'll do things all on their own. See where I'm going? Manual control really isn't. It's just partial automation. Kind of defeats the purpose of manual control, no? All I want is options. Options to make ships do what I want, not what the AI wants. That's all. [;)]

Guys, how can the Devs give us what we want, when we don't even know ourselves [&:]

The way it was before sucked - the enemy could take your Planet while you had idle (manual) ships sitting right by.

Now, they'll jump to any thing detected and even chase it into deep space (I actually prefer this to the old method of doing nothing).


What we need is a "D" option:
"A" - Automates as it is now.
"D" - Defends if a threat comes into range.
"M" or just "A" Off - Full manual control, sits idle until ordered to do something else.

ORIGINAL: Fishman

The simple solution to the "ships do dumb stuff when told to do something else" fix is to do the following.
1. Never interrupt a manually given order to refuel.
2. Never chase a enemy ship when on manual: Only fire on targets of opportunity as they enter range.
3. Never run off to refuel while currently being watched on the camera.

except, when you give an order to attack a ship/base/etc and you run out of fuel, it should break to refuel because it cannot FIRE without fuel and it will DIE.
So this isn't a solution at all, its a step backwards. There needs to be an override that lets you temporarily disable it, and a few exceptions that automatically avoid it in a few specific cases that we mentioned, but otherwise it works as intended.

ORIGINAL: Spacecadet

Guys, how can the Devs give us what we want, when we don't even know ourselves [&:]

The way it was before sucked - the enemy could take your Planet while you had idle (manual) ships sitting right by.

Now, they'll jump to any thing detected and even chase it into deep space (I actually prefer this to the old method of doing nothing).


What we need is a "D" option:
"A" - Automates as it is now.
"D" - Defends if a threat comes into range.
"M" or just "A" Off - Full manual control, sits idle until ordered to do something else.

There is no need for drastic things, just a few slight alterations.

I agree with taltamir, no need of such things in my opinion.

Maybe a light tweak of the pursuit behavior, in order to have the fleet stay in the system, yes, but I think that's all.

That's why you put your ships on auto. Why should I have to "deal with" my ships on manual being partially automated? Why even give us the choice of turning off automation in the first place? The dev is trying to cater to micro and macromanagers alike. As it stands now, I can't micro my ships. They'll do things all on their own. See where I'm going? Manual control really isn't. It's just partial automation. Kind of defeats the purpose of manual control, no? All I want is options. Options to make ships do what I want, not what the AI wants. That's all.

Ok I see what you mean Varek. Yes, lots of options could be add to the game to pleased everyone. However, I dont know if adding more micromanaging options to Distant World is the good direction...

Solution:
1. Make an exception for a ship manually ordered to invade a planet where it does not break to refuel if it can reach the planet on the current tank.
2. Make an exception for a ship ordered (manually or automatically) to colonize a planet where they do not break to refuel at all unless it would shorten the trip.
3. If attacking AI is off then ships should not auto engage beyond their weapons range (or maybe slightly beyond it, but not on the other side of the system).
4. There should be an override where you can tell a ship to ignore auto-refuel and auto-engage commands, be in complete puppet mode. You should be able to switch it on and off on a per ship/fleet basis. It should be a checkmark in the rightclick menu of a ship, showing either an empty box or a checked box next to puppet mode so you immediately know if it is on or off, and can toggle it at will.
5. A ship on auto should not engage a much more powerful enemy in the same system all by itself. (check weapons damage of enemy vs shields... if they can kill you way too quickly, don't engage alone)
6. I know there was another one but I forgot it... if someone can point me at an issue mentioned in this thread that isn't solved by the above suggestions I would probably recall it.

The knee jerk reaction of "OMFG auto sucks it should all be manual and micromanagement!" is entirely uncalled for. Automation is great, and it has been improving with each version. There are still some kinks to work out which can be done with specific solutions rather then broad strokes that would do more harm then good (disabling auto refuel entirely will do more harm then good... I remember the game before auto refuel, it wasn't as good as it is now)

ORIGINAL: taltamir

The knee jerk reaction of "OMFG auto sucks it should all be manual and micromanagement!" is entirely uncalled for. Automation is great, and it has been improving with each version. There are still some kinks to work out which can be done with specific solutions rather then broad strokes that would do more harm then good (disabling auto refuel entirely will do more harm then good... I remember the game before auto refuel, it wasn't as good as it is now)

Sigh, that's not at all what I'm saying.

ORIGINAL: VarekRaith

ORIGINAL: taltamir

The knee jerk reaction of "OMFG auto sucks it should all be manual and micromanagement!" is entirely uncalled for. Automation is great, and it has been improving with each version. There are still some kinks to work out which can be done with specific solutions rather then broad strokes that would do more harm then good (disabling auto refuel entirely will do more harm then good... I remember the game before auto refuel, it wasn't as good as it is now)

Sigh, that's not at all what I'm saying.

That is exactly what you are saying. so is fishman.
I know, it SOUNDS great to say "why should I deal with auto-refuel doing something it shouldn't when I am on manual, manual should mean no auto-refuel (duh)". but that is wrong, manual without auto-refuel is a nightmare... Now you should have the ability to exclude ships, individually (and temporarily) from auto-refuel on manual. This is because fuel is so utterly and fundamentally important, and because you will have LOTS of ships and ALL of them need it. So manually refueling ALL ships is completely impossible for a human being... hence why it is on even in full auto. (which is due to an overwhelming and massive callout for it, this didn't exist in v1, and everyone clamored that it makes the game very unplayable, and they were right)

Programming exceptions to it is different than turning it off. You are right, you shouldn't have to get into a situation where auto-refuel is messing up your manual commands on manual control. But the solution is not to do away with auto-refuel... not a by a long shot. The solution is as I have described above. make specific exceptions and a puppet mode for cases not covered by those exceptions.

ORIGINAL: taltamir

ORIGINAL: VarekRaith

ORIGINAL: taltamir

The knee jerk reaction of "OMFG auto sucks it should all be manual and micromanagement!" is entirely uncalled for. Automation is great, and it has been improving with each version. There are still some kinks to work out which can be done with specific solutions rather then broad strokes that would do more harm then good (disabling auto refuel entirely will do more harm then good... I remember the game before auto refuel, it wasn't as good as it is now)

Sigh, that's not at all what I'm saying.

That is exactly what you are saying. so is fishman.
I know, it SOUNDS great to say "why should I deal with auto-refuel doing something it shouldn't when I am on manual, manual should mean no auto-refuel (duh)". but that is wrong, manual without auto-refuel is a nightmare... Now you should have the ability to exclude ships, individually (and temporarily) from auto-refuel on manual. This is because fuel is so utterly and fundamentally important, and because you will have LOTS of ships and ALL of them need it. So manually refueling ALL ships is completely impossible for a human being... hence why it is on even in full auto. (which is due to an overwhelming and massive callout for it, this didn't exist in v1, and everyone clamored that it makes the game very unplayable, and they were right)

Programming exceptions to it is different than turning it off. You are right, you shouldn't have to get into a situation where auto-refuel is messing up your manual commands on manual control. But the solution is not to do away with auto-refuel... not a by a long shot. The solution is as I have described above. make specific exceptions and a puppet mode for cases not covered by those exceptions.

I never brought up auto refuel. I have no issues with auto refuel.
My issues are solely with the auto attack code. I don't like having my manual ships leave their assigned position to attack a slug on the other side of the system. I don't like it that when I tell them to stop, they retarget and go off again, ignoring my order. That's what my auto patrols are for. I don't like the fact that said ship will not return to where he was. I don't like my manual ships going on suicide runs because the auto target AI thought that lone frigate could take on a base. Just tweak the range at which manually controlled ships will auto engage hostiles. If it has to jump, it's too far. I don't have a problem with auto refuel. I use a combo of automated and manually controlled ships. Sheesh.