Matrix Games Forums

This is an interesting web page that shows the orientation of panzer turrets in attack formation.

http://www.hq.wwiionline.com/articles/g ... _doc.shtml

What that site doesn't do is to list any sources at all. Are those WWII tactics or modern tactics overlaid to WWII?

When I go looking at all the photos I have of WWII tanks they show just what your photo showed. Tanks with their guns pointed straight forward. For all nations.

The drawings of the tanks with their turrets positioned to side shows tank 3 with it's turret turned to the rear quarter of the tank. No tanker I know of would advance with the back or side of his turret to the enemy.



I even looked to see if the Soviets might have done this. I have "Soviet Armored Tactics in World War II: Red Army Armor Tactics from Individual Vehicle  to Company from the Combat Regulations 1944" by Charles C. Sharp. While the book goes into great detail about every aspect of lower level tactics it never once mentions a clock position for tank turrets in movement to combat formations.


I think this is a tactic that has developed since WWII as I can find no evidence of it in any of my materials. I'd be happy to have you give examples of this tactic during WWII though it would make a great addition to the game if it was actually used.

Good Hunting.

MR

Hate to pull another panzer truppen on you, but I know there is a reference in there about various formations and where they are supposed to be spotted.  Keep in mind its only with combat immenent.  Most pictures have everyone jaunting down the road in travel formation or some massed propaganda charge.

You remember which volume or have a page number reference?

I don't mind having others find things I've missed. That's part of the fun of doing research. To see what you can find....whoever finds it.

Good Hunting.

MR

Or not.
Trying to read more into this than I should. The tank with the gun that's a cross is the platoon CO and the tanks with the gun that's a line may be the section COs.



Should give reference.
Panzertaktik
German Small-Unit Armor Tactics. Wolfgang Schneider.

It was volume 1, and similar diagram to above, but showing echelon formation.

Possibly the lack of photos could be the very limited time that this formation would be employed.  Only from the time the tanks would advance on the enemy positions. During travel in secured areas they would travel with the guns either in the travel locks or straight ahead. In a tactical situation as soon as fire was directed at them they would face the enemy.

So, we are talking a very limited amount of time. I'll see if I can find the diagram.

It appears from Charles Sharp's book that the Soviets weren't worried about it as there were no references to turret positions in that book, which was taken from their combat regulations.

Good Hunting.

MR

Reading a book on combat between MK IVs and T-34s. Waiting in ambush these MK IVs see the T-34s in groups of 4 to 6 coming on in column with their turrets all facing the same way, forward. If they hit them from the sides, the turrets again are all facing forward.

I think the turret position is a separate issue from the LOS responsibility of a defined sector which the above diagram clearly shows. I don't think anyone can argue this wasn't practiced. In my mind anyways CM's solution was an elegant and simple one to facilitate the observation of specific areas whether for armor or infantry.

Keep in mind that some design decisions are made based on whether or not the AI can use a feature. Gameplay comes first, then AI ability, then engine limitations.

What is the largest size one can have with respect to opposing forces?  Company vs company, battalion vs battalion?

Since there is no command structure, you can have as many platoons as you wish to crowd the map with and hope that your computer can process it. Typically I play with the equivalent of 3-4 companies of troops and 10-20 AFVs, roughly a battalion.

Excellent. Thanks for the reply. I'm definately getting more interested in this. May I ask why no command structure?

Hi RedCharlie65,

The way Panzer Command is designed, it basically puts you in the role of the Company Commander. The orders system is designed to represent what you could reasonably communicate to each platoon commander during a turn and your orders are based around the platoon as the base unit for orders. You can also give orders to each individual tank or squad, within the limits of the base order for that platoon, but issuing orders by platoon with some tweaks down to the tank or squad level is encouraged and also helps things move along fairly quickly.

As a result, there's no formal command structure, but the model of command is built into the game design itself. Platoons do have their own structure though and many things are resolved at the platoon level - we track the platoon commander, platoon morale, platoon orders, etc. There are plans for the future releases in the series to go up to the battalion level and add an additional company command layer with a more defined structure, but that's still just a plan at this point.

Regards,

- Erik

Thanks Erik.  Again, your game is looking superb.  Very much on my "purchase" list.  One other thing If I may ask; I'm assuming that if sales go well and you continue to support this product and construct add-ons, will there be additional forces to command?  I'm referring to Finnish forces, Rumanians, Italians, Hungarians on the eastern front?  One of the things I very much enjoyed with the old combat mission game was the ability to play these forces and simulate the engagements they partook in.

Modders can add any units to the game. This is not like the CM game system where the units were hard coded and all you could do to make new units was to put a different texture over the old one. The base values stayed the same in CM. In PC you can make entire new units and put them in the game as mods.

Whether Matrix does that or a modder it wouldn't matter. Matrix wouldn't have to do it and that's what opens PC up to all kinds of different avenues.

Hope this answers your question.

Good Hunting.

MR

I wasn't sure where to post this but does anyone know if there will be an option to buy the new game manual for PC Ostfront? I'm asking for those that already own PC Kharkov?

Even an option to download the new manual would be great but would prefer the original hard copy.

The game will come with a complete set of manuals as a pdf's. Not sure if you can just order one.

If you are a modder of any sort READ THE PCK MANUAL!!!!!!!!!!! It's the bible on how to make changes in the game. Other than making structure, infantry or vehicle mods of course. But you guys know what you're doing already and if you don't you need a little 1on1 time with either Stridor, Mobius, Spellir, Junk 2 Drive or JMass. They can get you going in the right direction. Don't call me. I'll just look at you with that 1000 yard stare.

Good Hunting.

MR 

Yes, this means that if you want you can play with 60 Second Turns with no Reaction Phase and always have access to the full Orders menu at the start of each Turn.[/b]

 
YESSSSSS!
 

Individual infantry casualties to show step losses, with fallen soldiers remaining on the battlefield

 
DOUBLE YESSSSSSS!
 

Panzer VI Tiger II (King Tiger)

 
OMG I CAN'T WAIT YESSSSSS!
 

60+ Preset Historical Scenarios (including stand-alone and campaign battles)

 
I didn't see any Factory Works scenarios ala Squad Leader game?
 
All n alll though I can hardly wait but I've been waiting over 2-1/2 years for this please hurry up.
 
 

I have a couple quick questions:

1. Are the Soviet platoons modeled as 3-4 AFV units? So, for example, a 10 tank Soviet company would be modeled as two 3 tank platoons and one 4 tank platoons?

2. The variable time and use of reaction phases...is this symetrical? Meaning if its changed, it is equally changed for both sides? Could one side have a different setting is what I am asking.