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ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Radar- (and practically all other electronic gear-) developement was heavily dependent on qualified researchers, engineers and techicians with an
university degree. The Allies had those in abundance, Germany a bit less but also enough, but Japan, as an agricultural nation with only small
limited areas of modern industrialisation did not.
Thats why the Japanese contrary to the Allies had to limit themselves to a very narrow but low risk lane of approach when adressing problems.

I doubt the Japanese even came close to understand the potential of radar until the war was already over.

I find this a bias that stem from the fact that it's very difficult to find reliable data on wartime Japanese radar technology as most of the equipment and the documentation was destroyed by the Japanese themselves.

Japan knew it's importance and actively tried to catch up and build many different sets of more or less efficient radar sets in hundreds.

The Marines captured the airfield on Guadalcanal, they also found an intact air warning radar. This set was said to be rather crude, but this was just a simple air warning set for out laying outposts. The Japanese searched the wrecks of Prince of Wales and Repulse to recover the radar equipment. It's what you call no interest?

Ironically, the Japanese had good technical minds, and had even developed an effective cavity magnetron in 1939, well before the British. They had people with good ideas, but radar work remained organizationally muddled and crippled by inadequate resources. The biggest problem as I see it was not the lack of ideas or technology, but the shortage of good-quality electronic components.

Yes, the Japanese had excellent technical minds (Japanese aircraft design was very good). However, there was a very limited pool of these technical minds to spread around for many important needs. Japan was catching up with the west and far behind the West in educational instutitions that produced college educated personell-especially those trained in the techncial fields. The numbers were very small. Combine that with a very limited industrial base that was strained to the limit even before the Allies started bombing the homeland and it is amazing that Japan developed any sort of radar at all. Once again, as you say there are not many records but it is not hard to imagine the difficulties a society would have with the limited resources available. Not only lack of scientist and engineers to devote to radar developement but a lack of skilled labor to manufacturer and skill technical workers who were capable of running tests. Combine this with, poor quality control, lack of spare parts and raw material, I just can't imagine that the radar produced by Japan would have amounted to much. I have to admit that I am speculating here but it is not a far stretch.

The radar net you cite in the South Pacific sound impressive but having seen the difficulties keeping radar working on even modern merchant ships, I can only imagine how many days any Japanese radar at any given base was not functioning for any number of reasons. Even Allied radar of the day was very sensitive and prone to breaking down quite easily.

I am sure he writes a whole lot of good stories, but I am also pretty sure his expertise is not radar.

Is yours?

I am no expert by any means but I do have extensive experience in using airborne radar and sonar systems and have a pretty good understanding of the design requirements for them.

Chez

ORIGINAL: viberpol

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Again they are talking about the complete system, coast watchers and radar that generally gave an hours warning. Also note that "it could pick up planes about 100 kilometres away" doesn't mean that it regularly did.

Some calculations, Cape St.George is 100 kilometres from Rabaul, meaning that it in a best case scenario it could pick up raids 200 km before Rabaul. However, even the B-17 flew at a cruise speed of 293km/h (according to wiki). So the radar set at Cape St.George was, according to these figures, technically incapable of giving an hours warning, even when picking up a raid at max range. I'm not sure about the speed of other bombers, but I guess they won't have been much slower.

It wasn't? [&:]
If 100 + 200 (of the effective range from the table below) = 300, and bombers fly from New Guinea at aprox. 300 km/h, it's exactly an hour before they'd hit Rabaul... (Even if I am not sure if only the 5th/13th Air Force based at Salomons made the bombing of Rabaul? I believe there were Dobodura, PM based raids? Cape St George is a southernmost point on the island of New Ireland). So why're you saying it's impossible?

I'm saying it is impossible based on the information that was given by the Japanese officer. He specifies that the set had a range of 100km, so I'm using that for the calculations. If the Japanese had placed a longer ranged set at Cape St. George then they would have been technically capable of spotting raids an hour away with radar, but they didn't so they couldn't. This means that the spotters were most likely the ones giving the first reports.

have we missed the original posts point?

IF radar is reliably picking up bombers at 120+ then why are fighters being picked up at 30?  This is a valid question.

From high altitude at the time of WWII the only difference in the 2 plane types was the strength of the return signal which is a square or cube function with their transmitters (I don't think they had phased planar arrays then though they were not truly omni-directional hence the in-between the square and cube).  Fighters and bombers shouldn't have that different of pickup ranges.  That is a realistic question...

If bombers are in the 120NM range fighters should be in the 50-60 range for that set... (assuming similar numbers).

Much of the problem is in the game we launch HUGE raids....  These will be picked up no question even with old equipment.  Now it might be like pearl where the information is "fumbled" as stated above.

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

I am sure he writes a whole lot of good stories, but I am also pretty sure his expertise is not radar.

Is yours?

I am no expert by any means but I do have extensive experience in using airborne radar and sonar systems and have a pretty good understanding of the design requirements for them.

Chez

I did make quite a number of courses over 2 years for radar operator at AustroControl (now part of EuroControl IIRC), which is responsible for the Austrian civilian airspace
and, at that time, large junks of neighbour airspace including ex-Yugoslavia, back in the in the 90´s of the last century.
Thats about as close I came to learn about technical aspects of radar, but I guess it makes it above average.

On the other hand the answer is NO for both of us, because on that topic you´d have to be a 95 year old Japanese radar technician and sadly I doubt many of those are still around.
Rare bunch of guys.

Did you work on Orions?

Must have been a fascinating assignment during the cold war....

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Did you work on Orions?

Must have been a fascinating assignment during the cold war....

Yes, I have nearly 9000 hours in the P-3A, P-3C and P-3C Update III models. I was the senior acoustic operator using passive and active sonar systems to track submarines and was the relief operator for the radar, MAD and ESM systems. Detecting and tracking the bad guys was a fantastic thrill. I flew against them wherever they operated from the North Atlantic to the North Pacifc to every point in between including the Med. It never ceased to be a thrill when I gained contact on one.

The basic design philosophy of the systems I used when I first started flying hadn't changed much from WWII. All the electronics were still analog then. Sure they used transistors instead of tubes and such but the design philosophy remained much the same, just more reliable and more powerful. Now everything's digital but I've found that is not always better. The AQA-7 analog airborne sonar system was far better than the UYS-1 SASP digital system that replaced it. I hated SASP!!!

Chez

SASP besides a couple of other things immediately tells you what you hear by comparing to a database right?
Like reducing an artform to a messenger service.

Civilian area control was a bit different on embracing digitalisation. The problem was usually that the analog devices did not
cope with the clutter of modern airspace and were a real bi*** on error margins.
But I understand the difference in expactations to a military system which simply has to be as flexible as possible to make most of it.

SASP besides a couple of other things immediately tells you what you hear by comparing to a database right?
Like reducing an artform to a messenger service.

No, SASP doesn't have any kind of useable target database. That's mostly a myth from the movies. They played with that idea but it just didn't work when I was flying. But I've been out of it long enough though and computer processing has improved dramatically so maybe they do now but they didn't then.

When I was flying the systems could alert you to a frequency or frequencies that you input into the system but the AQA-7 could also do that in the P-3C. Unfortunately neither system could tell you if that frequency is coming from a sub, ship or whale fart. Only a trained eye and ear can do that. That's why it was so fun and challenging. And I don't mind saying that I was very, very good at it.

Chez

Chez, I don´t mind saying that I envy you for your job.

Chez does have a bit of a tougher time with USN subs in WITP than he had with Soviet subs IRL... [:'(]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

SASP besides a couple of other things immediately tells you what you hear by comparing to a database right?
Like reducing an artform to a messenger service.

No, SASP doesn't have any kind of useable target database. That's mostly a myth from the movies. They played with that idea but it just didn't work when I was flying. But I've been out of it long enough though and computer processing has improved dramatically so maybe they do now but they didn't then.

When I was flying the systems could alert you to a frequency or frequencies that you input into the system but the AQA-7 could also do that in the P-3C. Unfortunately neither system could tell you if that frequency is coming from a sub, ship or whale fart. Only a trained eye and ear can do that. That's why it was so fun and challenging. And I don't mind saying that I was very, very good at it.

Chez

AH signal processing algorithms... I write them currently.

Did you have the issues with explaining to people that this is what it is i can't tell you so much one thing to look at but it is. I just know because I have looked at thousands and millions and this is what they look like.

The problem with making computers do that is that there is always a boss who gets in the way and wants something simple or simply that you have to have a decision tree and that makes it where you have to be able to point out single things... and then chain them together.

BTW radar wasn't so much a problem like this as you have an active antennae and receiver so you know it bounced off something.... counting the blades in a turbine on the other hand is.

Did you have the issues with explaining to people that this is what it is i can't tell you so much one thing to look at but it is. I just know because I have looked at thousands and millions and this is what they look like.

Exactly. Very difficult to discuss the systems without getting into areas that Uncle Sam would prefer to remain confidential. And the more you try to keep it generic, the more confusing it becomes to them.

And the same with many of the flights I flew on. We did things that I wish I could talk about because they were so exciting and challenging. But I have a feeling that certain people with guns and badges might come-a-calling if I did. [:-]

Chez

Radar is a hell of a lot better than it used to be.

It seems to have pretty much negated the divedivedive altitude problem too, I have noticed.

I've also noticed some weird things if you stratosweep into radar. I suspect that aircraft ceiling might be ignored when its working out combat, so something happens a bit like this...

P38s comes in at 39k feet, the ceiling
Tojos on CAP at 35k feet

Tojos get 30 minutes warning due to radar
Some of the Tojos are deemed to have time to climb above P38 to 40k feet - even though Tojos can't fly that high

That certainly seems to match what the occasional combat report with Corsairs at 44k feet implies, anyway. [;)]

It is rather odd but I am sanguine, as the actual bottom line, how many get shot down, now seems much closer to reality, and thats the important part - even if the combat report is saying they are fighting in outer space. [:'(]

ORIGINAL: EUBanana

Radar is a hell of a lot better than it used to be.

It seems to have pretty much negated the divedivedive altitude problem too, I have noticed.

I've also noticed some weird things if you stratosweep into radar. I suspect that aircraft ceiling might be ignored when its working out combat, so something happens a bit like this...

P38s comes in at 39k feet, the ceiling
Tojos on CAP at 35k feet

Tojos get 30 minutes warning due to radar
Some of the Tojos are deemed to have time to climb above P38 to 40k feet - even though Tojos can't fly that high

That certainly seems to match what the occasional combat report with Corsairs at 44k feet implies, anyway. [;)]

It is rather odd but I am sanguine, as the actual bottom line, how many get shot down, now seems much closer to reality, and thats the important part - even if the combat report is saying they are fighting in outer space. [:'(]

glad there are some people noticing the same things as I do

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Did you have the issues with explaining to people that this is what it is i can't tell you so much one thing to look at but it is. I just know because I have looked at thousands and millions and this is what they look like.

Exactly. Very difficult to discuss the systems without getting into areas that Uncle Sam would prefer to remain confidential. And the more you try to keep it generic, the more confusing it becomes to them.

And the same with many of the flights I flew on. We did things that I wish I could talk about because they were so exciting and challenging. But I have a feeling that certain people with guns and badges might come-a-calling if I did. [:-]

Chez

Know the feeling! One day we put a fire control radar lock on a passing AWAC and decided to play the "see if he can break it" game.... Resulted in us replacing a radar package .

That experience on the ground of looking at the scope a million times is what japan was missing. One of the problems with island defense is your best people are lost right after they get experience... We don't understand that with today's approach of having the computer make the decision.

Tojos get 30 minutes warning due to radar
Some of the Tojos are deemed to have time to climb above P38 to 40k feet - even though Tojos can't fly that high

I wonder if the Tojos don't actually climb that high but wait for the P-38s to come down to them. The Tojos have radar warning so are better prepared to evade the bounce. Just a thought.

Chez

editted for clarification of thought

Know the feeling! One day we put a fire control radar lock on a passing AWAC and decided to play the "see if he can break it" game.... Resulted in us replacing a radar package .

We did something similar to a Soviet warship unintentionally. We had just received ISAR radar and were using it to image targets while out on s surface search patrol. ISAR is very powerful search radar and can provide a basic image of the target. But to a ESM operator, it can sound like a fire control radar when in the imaging mode. The moment we entered imaging mode, he lit up the world with every air, surface search and fire control radar he had. Lucky for us we were far outside his engagement envelope. No telling what might have happened had we been closer.

Didn't take long though before the Soviets caught on and stopped responding to it.

Chez

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Know the feeling! One day we put a fire control radar lock on a passing AWAC and decided to play the "see if he can break it" game.... Resulted in us replacing a radar package .

We did something similar to a Soviet warship unintentionally. We had just received ISAR radar and were using it to image targets while out on s surface search patrol. ISAR is very powerful search radar and can provide a basic image of the target. But to a ESM operator, it can sound like a fire control radar when in the imaging mode. The moment we entered imaging mode, he lit up the world with every air, surface search and fire control radar he had. Lucky for us we were far outside his engagement envelope. No telling what might have happened had we been closer.

Didn't take long though before the Soviets caught on and stopped responding to it.

Chez

you guys ever drop any porn mags on the "fishing trawlers" in your day? man, they got to love our RIG's after a while...[;)]

ORIGINAL: ChezDaJez

Know the feeling! One day we put a fire control radar lock on a passing AWAC and decided to play the "see if he can break it" game.... Resulted in us replacing a radar package .

We did something similar to a Soviet warship unintentionally. We had just received ISAR radar and were using it to image targets while out on s surface search patrol. ISAR is very powerful search radar and can provide a basic image of the target. But to a ESM operator, it can sound like a fire control radar when in the imaging mode. The moment we entered imaging mode, he lit up the world with every air, surface search and fire control radar he had. Lucky for us we were far outside his engagement envelope. No telling what might have happened had we been closer.

Didn't take long though before the Soviets caught on and stopped responding to it.

Chez

Not necessarily a good idea--the job of their trawlers was to collect that stuff. On the other hand, you definitely got what you were looking for, so good work.