Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: redmarkus4

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

For units "disappearing" out of incompletely formed pockets- is it possible the AI is simply disbanding them?

maybe they all just put on their civvies and went home LOL

Apparently they didn't want to play anymore either...

ORIGINAL: Franklin Nimitz

For units "disappearing" out of incompletely formed pockets- is it possible the AI is simply disbanding them?

only if a RR supply line has been left intact into the pocket. (or an AI cheat is in play)

18.5.1. DISBAND REQUIREMENTS AND RESTRICTIONS

Units can only disband if they have enough movement points remaining to move to a rail hex that is connected to the supply grid, and if they are not within three hexes of an enemy unit.
...

Too many assumptions are being made toward the OP. Everyone has just assumed that he hasn't played any of the "Road to" scenarios and that he hasn't read the manual before playing the GC. Maybe he has. How many times can you do the same turn over and over again without getting frustrated? Playing the "Road to" scenarios and then playing the GC is bascially the same thing. It's playing the same turns over and over. WitE is not like WiTP. There aren't as many strategic options. If you want to win you have to get Moscow and Leningrad and there's only a few ways to get there. If you can't do it then you aren't going to win. Period. There's only so many ways that you can get to Leningrad or Moscow. And it doesn't take a genious to see if you're going to make it or not.

I really don't like some the elitist attitudes I'm seeing that give the impression that the OP isn't smart enough to start out playing the GC or that he hasn't read the manual. Where does it say that he can't start out with the GC. The "Road to" scenarios play under the same rules. So what difference does it make? Instead of putting the guy down why not try helping him. There have been very few helpful posts in this thread.

You got me there!

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

ORIGINAL: Sheytan

Actually I disagree. You should have a chance to win if you play well. You CAN win playing WITP AE as Japan, and you can win in this game as the Germans. It all depends on how WELL you play.

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus




I think you want everything and NOW [:)] You should be patient. All of us (except the testers) are STARTING to play, understand, grasp this game too. We are a bunch of noobs. I will not try to convince you though. You're old enough [:)]

Anyway, do NOT expect the Germans to win... just like the Japanese CANNOT win in WitP. They messed with the wrong guys, that's all [8D]

Sheytan, playing against über incompetent players does not count [:)] I ALWAYS assume (a mark of respect) most players are competent [;)]

Well said, I would be bashing if that was the case.

ORIGINAL: Gandalf

In response to the OP... If I had plopped down $80 for a monster game on the East Front and 3 days later figured out how to win with only 11 turns under my belt towards a 225 turn scenario, I would be screaming for my money back for being sold a game with such a cheesy AI.

I'd like to think my posts were putting myself in the same position as him. I'm fond of saying, "If I can play this game, anyone can." In a way that may seem like putting him down, but since I'm saying the same about myself, I don't see it that way.

I've already mentioned I got discouraged as well, but eventually started getting to the point where I was not discouraged.

I feel that most have been pretty supportive, so I hope FSP doesn't feel anyone was putting him down.

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

By the way - how can you know this game well enough to tackle the Grand Campaign? I'm not saying new people to the game shouldn't tackle the GC if that's what they want, but to give up saying it's impossible to win if you don't know the game mechanics inside out is also very premature.

Do the Road To scenarios. Get some "localised" tactics down. Read the relevant sections of the manual as you play those. If you're ego is so bruised by a good AI, then drop it to easy and grab those early wins. I doubt I'll be playing the GC on anything other than Easy first time round.

Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios. How do you know exactly how that he hasn't played the "Road to" scenarios or read the manual? And maybe it's not a bruised ego with the AI but an actual AI cheat. How do you know? Both of your posts come off as being highly elitist without being helpful to the OP at all.

I am just finishing "War Without Garlands-Operation Barbarossa 1941-1942" by Robert Kershaw. He claims (and describes in detail) that the pockets of 1941, especially when first formed, were extremely "porous." Many Soviet units did "rout out of" (or escape) these pockets until the cordons had time to solidify. The game situation, where many Soviet units rout when attacked in the turn the pocket forms and surrender when they are attacked instead in the next turn, appears to be right on target.

You guys take the OP seriously?  Quit the game after 11 turns?  Give me a break!
 
 
 

ORIGINAL: bjmorgan

You guys take the OP seriously?  Quit the game after 11 turns?  Give me a break!

It's been a slow day [:D]

Snap out of it! Ruck up and move out. It's the journey that matters--the destination takes care of itself if you've done the trip right.

fsp:

If I would be Patton, I would chastise you the way he could do it: "Son, aren't you lacking a bit in the perseverance department here? Come on !!!" [:D]

But my avatar is the soft-spoken Ike, so I am going to say to you to hang on in there, not all is lost:

• First, you have learned a lot in those first 11 turns. You've got your nose bloodied and you have learned things you shouldn't do, things you should do, and things you have to watch for. You're still in summer 1941, and these lessons will come in handy later.
• If you jumped straight into a grand campaign for your first game, believing you would be entering the gates of Moscow on your first try or so, this is a rude awakening indeed. I have been through this awakening twice myself playing the Road to Smolensk scenario and losing the first one decisively and the second one was a minor defeat. Your experience is typical.
• The game is based on historical reality. The reality is that from whatever angle you look at it, Germany had basically no chance of winning this war in the long run. You have to keep this perspective in mind. The challenge here is not to get a Major Victory as Germans, but rather to do better than what historically happened (lasting a bit longer, getting possibly a draw or limit the Soviets to a Minor Victory...getting a minor German victory would be fantastic).
• Even though 11 turns is very early in a GC, if you feel you already have learned so much and you could do much better if you had the chance to restart, by all means do it. The Wehrmacht could not rewind and restart. You can, and since you have not invested too much energy and time yet after only 11 turns, it's easier to restart now.
• As for getting better and better, you already know the drill: read the manual, read the threads and continue to ask questions. Practice makes perfect.

And forgot to say: why not try the Soviets for a change ?

ORIGINAL: tevans6220
Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios.

Actually the rules (victory conditions) are different between GC and limited scenarios. This influences strategy and gameplay. "Road to" scenarios are a race against time. If you do this in GC, you can gain much ground before the first Mud and Winter but does it guarantee a win? Maybe playing too much "Road to" scenarios will influence reckless maneuvers in GC, leaving the Axis exhausted and with unsercure supply lines as you lack long term planning.

Also even if you fail Operation Barbarossa, if you do a good defense and prevent Germany from capitulating, it is a Draw for the Grand Campaign. All is not lost because you're not doing well in the 11th turn as the Axis.

ORIGINAL: henri51

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

As Erik stated - when you encircle, you have to NOT attack that turn - leave the unit encircled for a turn before attacking. If you attack on the turn you encircle, they will rout out....leave them a turn then attack and BAM...surrendered

Yes this is a very misunderstood part of the game, and good advice about not attacking surrounded units until next turn. However I don't understand how it is supposed to be realistic for units to rout out of a closed pocket when they can't move out of the pocket normally.Can someone explain the reason behind this or is it just because they are not sure how to modify the rout routine to avoid routing units crossing enemy lines? [&:]

Henri

I just assumed it's because it's turn based. Real war isn't - to state the obvious, it's real time - so the fact the game is turn based, I've just went with the idea that if it was real time, they'd try to rout out.

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

By the way - how can you know this game well enough to tackle the Grand Campaign? I'm not saying new people to the game shouldn't tackle the GC if that's what they want, but to give up saying it's impossible to win if you don't know the game mechanics inside out is also very premature.

Do the Road To scenarios. Get some "localised" tactics down. Read the relevant sections of the manual as you play those. If you're ego is so bruised by a good AI, then drop it to easy and grab those early wins. I doubt I'll be playing the GC on anything other than Easy first time round.

Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios. How do you know exactly how that he hasn't played the "Road to" scenarios or read the manual? And maybe it's not a bruised ego with the AI but an actual AI cheat. How do you know? Both of your posts come off as being highly elitist without being helpful to the OP at all.

Because if you've read the manual and played the Road To scenarios, then I'm thinking he's got a good grasp of the rules. And I personally think if you have a good grasp of the rules - then you are NOT going to say, in your 11th turn of 240, that there is no way for you to win...and if you are going to say that, then you either haven't got a good grasp of the rules, or you are so uber at the game that you figured that out after 11 turns.

I didn't say I knew he hadn't read the manual or played the Road to scenarios. He asked for advice and I gave what little I had. He gave little information on the way he played those 11 turns, so there is very little you can give as ideas as to what he can do. Besides, I don't know the game well enough to give anything other than what I offered.

I'm sorry I tried to give him pointers.

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

By the way - how can you know this game well enough to tackle the Grand Campaign? I'm not saying new people to the game shouldn't tackle the GC if that's what they want, but to give up saying it's impossible to win if you don't know the game mechanics inside out is also very premature.

Do the Road To scenarios. Get some "localised" tactics down. Read the relevant sections of the manual as you play those. If you're ego is so bruised by a good AI, then drop it to easy and grab those early wins. I doubt I'll be playing the GC on anything other than Easy first time round.

Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios. How do you know exactly how that he hasn't played the "Road to" scenarios or read the manual? And maybe it's not a bruised ego with the AI but an actual AI cheat. How do you know? Both of your posts come off as being highly elitist without being helpful to the OP at all.

Elitist? You're joking right?. There is nothing elitist about my post. I am nowhere near understanding the game. Nor am I a fanboy (just in case you throw that one in the bag).

To go a different road to "My dad is bigger than your dad", my post was more helpful than yours. You have made two posts, one attacking most people who responded to his post and one directed at me.

Sure I made assumptions as did others. But anyone turning in the towel after 11 turns is having a laugh...seriously. And it smacks of having a bruised ego.

I tried to help by suggesting the manual and the Road To scenarios because there was very little information in his post. It was left to us to guess what the problems were. I didn't know he hadn't read the manual. I didn't know he hadn't played the Road To scenarios - I guessed.

There are testers in here that have been playing the game months, years for some, and I've read them post they're still learning new ways of doing things. I just guessed that after 11 turns, less than 5% of the game length, that he hadn't experimented.

If he has experimented, if he has read the manual and if he does have a solid grasp of the rules, then I'd like him to say so...then people who understand the game (much better than I do at the moment) can help him properly. As it is, I helped how I could.

ORIGINAL: tevans6220

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

By the way - how can you know this game well enough to tackle the Grand Campaign? I'm not saying new people to the game shouldn't tackle the GC if that's what they want, but to give up saying it's impossible to win if you don't know the game mechanics inside out is also very premature.

Do the Road To scenarios. Get some "localised" tactics down. Read the relevant sections of the manual as you play those. If you're ego is so bruised by a good AI, then drop it to easy and grab those early wins. I doubt I'll be playing the GC on anything other than Easy first time round.

Why can't he tackle the GC. The rules are the same as for the "Road to" scenarios. How do you know exactly how that he hasn't played the "Road to" scenarios or read the manual? And maybe it's not a bruised ego with the AI but an actual AI cheat. How do you know? Both of your posts come off as being highly elitist without being helpful to the OP at all.

Well,maybe,just maybe by tackling the GC without knowing the basics or understanding the flow of the game he might just become overwhelmed,demoralized and decide to quit Mr.Anti-Elitist. Then he'll feel so despondent he'll start a thread just like this. Then a bunch of us fairly nice fellows will feel compelled to tell him it just ain't so and please give it another try. And you know what? maybe he will start things up again,be the first one to beat the darn AI and make us all feel insufferably pleased with ourselves! Or maybe not............time will tell.

Yes this is a very misunderstood part of the game, and good advice about not attacking surrounded units until next turn. However I don't understand how it is supposed to be realistic for units to rout out of a closed pocket when they can't move out of the pocket normally.Can someone explain the reason behind this or is it just because they are not sure how to modify the rout routine to avoid routing units crossing enemy lines? [&:]

That is because a turn is one week. It simulates that the encirclement, attack and rout happens at the same abstracted time frame (not sequentially as you play it via turn-based). It's a different case when the encirclement happened the week before where any routing that happens cannot be beyond the encirclement because the lines have been secured for some time. I think this (partial hex control) a very good and reasonable game mechanic that makes WITE stand out among other turn based games. Some thing not necessary when you play 1-day turns or real-time and WEGO resolution.

Sounds like you need a dose of self confidence you jack wagon. sry i couldnt help myself. Keep at it , youll get better or not.