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I attacked and took it all, sent most my Pz Corps there by rail for the winter, poised to re-rail to the front in Spring, (the Crimea being the Russian Riviera and all..) only to find that it is in a Blizzard as well, and first turn winter rules ( hex X, hex Y). Yes, a very gamey move, but there aren't death blizzards in the Crimea.

Ok, that's enough everyone. Please keep things civil. No personal attacks.

Regards,

- Erik

Abulbulian and Bwheatley I know from way back on AT forums. Those guys are not trolls and as far as I remember they keep it generally civil and intelligent. So +1 to those guys from prior experience. And can we avoid personal attacks and abusive/super-critical language and have fun w/ this game? Thanks!

And if it helps to bring anyone's blood pressure down - the patches that are released can be applied to ongoing PBEM games. AFAIK no PBEM games have made it into Dec 41 yet so I doubt any are irreparably harmed by not being able to strategic bomb out of the Crimea. There is apparently a Soviet air tactic that can be used to wear out the Luftwaffe in 41 but hopefully all of our PBEM'ers playing Sovs aren't taking advantage of that since it would ruin a fun PBEM game. I would guess air is due for some major patching over the next couple of patches.

Cheers

Guys,

1) Nothing is BROKEN. The person that made that statement is wrong.

2) Everything has been tested.

Do all of the mechanisms and routines work perfectly? No. Tweaks and patches will obviously continue for some time to correct the issues that come up. Testing doesn't always reveal all issues that may come up.

Brad

Against the AI, it is important to at least damage the forces in the Crimea, since somehow it can manage to send substantial reinforcements in the area. I normally employ only one German Corps with heavy artillery and pioneers plus the Romanian 3 Army, which includes the Romanian Mountain Corps. The point is that if one doesn't take Sevastapol early, the Romanian Mountain troops will provide a sufficient powerful rearguard.
 
For my newest game, I sent the late coming Panzer Corps there in order to provide added mobility and destroy the soviet forces outside Sevastapol. If I'm lucky the German Corps will winter in Sevastapol and the Romanian mountain corps will hold the Kerch strait. The rest will be railed northwards.

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Ok let me replace the word knowingly broken with "wasn't ideal".

Do you really think that they are the same thing?. I thought not, but, of course, English is not my native language. Or is that your way of saying: "sorry, I was rude with my words"

ORIGINAL: ComradeP
As pompack already implied, "new and exciting" bugs were discovered within days. With around or so dozen or so guys+a lady, you can't cover everything.

You need to put more ladies into that counter mix [:)]

just my 2 cents.they just patched toaw3 how long has it been out?steel panthers has been constantly updated again how long since its release?
as having limited exp with this game some of the {broken}features of this game only became evident from reading this forum.
but perhaps now that there are 100+[given the # of games sold] new testers the problems will be overcome given time.
"impatiance is a fools virtue"was something my grandfather told me.we pushed for the release of this product so we've gotten it.
i am enjoying it immensely having wanted somthing like this since i played board games since i could'nt find an opponent only one game fit the bill(i believe the name of the game was guderian which was as close to a solitaire game
as you could get,all the soviet units were preplaced upside down so you did'nt know what you where attacking till engaged}
sorry if i'm rambling been iced in and reading the manual again!

I bypassed it, and as soon as I broke out south of Rostov heading into towards the mountains, the Russkies mostly evacuated it and I got it for free. I was beginning to take the Black sea ports, so I guess the AI felt that it was being "surrounded."

Against the AI, it is important to at least damage the forces in the Crimea, since somehow it can manage to send substantial reinforcements in the area. I normally employ only one German Corps with heavy artillery and pioneers plus the Romanian 3 Army, which includes the Romanian Mountain Corps. The point is that if one doesn't take Sevastapol early, the Romanian Mountain troops will provide a sufficient powerful rearguard.

A problem when committing forces to taking the Crimea is that you can't really quit at the halfway point, as that doesn't really provide much of a benefit. You either take Sevastopol and Kerch, or the operation's essentially a failure that's tying down your forces. The Soviet player can then launch a minimal amphibious invasion of the Crimea that will tie down even more forces.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Against the AI, it is important to at least damage the forces in the Crimea, since somehow it can manage to send substantial reinforcements in the area. I normally employ only one German Corps with heavy artillery and pioneers plus the Romanian 3 Army, which includes the Romanian Mountain Corps. The point is that if one doesn't take Sevastapol early, the Romanian Mountain troops will provide a sufficient powerful rearguard.

A problem when committing forces to taking the Crimea is that you can't really quit at the halfway point, as that doesn't really provide much of a benefit. You either take Sevastopol and Kerch, or the operation's essentially a failure that's tying down your forces. The Soviet player can then launch a minimal amphibious invasion of the Crimea that will tie down even more forces.

Actually for me, the land in the Crimea tends to become secondary in '41. What I'm most intersted in is destroying the units that tend to accumulate in the area. When these plus other forces that the AI dispatches in the area, attack in winter, they can become a real pain in the neck (almost lirerally) since they threaten the supply lines to Stalino etc.. Sevastapol is a target, but not the main one plus the bulk of the units used (Romanian 3 Army except fot the mountain corps) are basically useless in '41 at the front (too slow to reach the frontline and too weak to really effect the outcome).

In the same vein as the humorous first post....

Ha ha, Crimea.  Do you know what Crimea is?  It's a sitting
duck.  A road apple.  Crimea is weak.  It's feeble.  I think it's
time to put the hurt on Crimea.

Actually for me, the land in the Crimea tends to become secondary in '41. What I'm most intersted in is destroying the units that tend to accumulate in the area. When these plus other forces that the AI dispatches in the area, attack in winter, they can become a real pain in the neck (almost lirerally) since they threaten the supply lines to Stalino etc.. Sevastapol is a target, but not the main one plus the bulk of the units used (Romanian 3 Army except fot the mountain corps) are basically useless in '41 at the front (too slow to reach the frontline and too weak to really effect the outcome).

What I meant was: if you don't commit to taking it, you have to hold 3 hexes to prevent the Soviets from getting out. If you do commit to taking the Crimea and fail to take it, your frontline will be much longer than 3 hexes and will thus require more troops. Good troops, so not primarily the Romanians, who with their combined strength would still have serious difficulties with invading my backyard.

Excellent point, what do you gain by holding 5 hexes inside the Crimea, at the gates of Kerch/Sevastapol, vs. 3 at the top? Nothing, just more empty space.

...and two of the exit hexes are very tough, swamps with only 1 hex adjacent, over a major river. Romanians are enough to hold those two. Give them a German Division or two, and a 3-corps Romanian Army should be able to keep it permanently stoppered.

There is a risk the Russkies come out in the Winter. But it seems to me that even if that happens, you can probably stop them on the Dnepr line, and to the East they would be super-dangerously exposed to being cut-off and destroyed.

In Summer of 1942, you can bust-in vs. the AI. Against a human I suspect that will be much tougher, but if I am a SU player, no way I attempt a breakout in 1942; I would be very content to sit there.

Oops! Sorry didn't explain myself well. My fault.
 
If Sevastapol doesn't fall, I pul back my forces behind the Romanian Mountain Corps, which is an excellent rearguard in the blizzard, out of the Crimea. They also will man the three hexes that lead to the Crimea as well.

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

The main problem would probably be a large scale Soviet amphibious operation being possible, with a maximum of 500x~50 amphibious points being accumulated. They can launch an operation with around 15 divisions or 5 to 7 corps and an HQ depending on what they're invading with.

The Soviets had the (theoretical) capability to launch a 15 division amphibious operation? I don't think that's even close to historically plausible. That would dwarf Neptune/Overlord.

That's unless I'm completely misinterpreting transport costs (which is doubtful as according to the manual the transport costs are the same for all strategic transportation modes), yes. It takes them 20 turns to get to their maximum amphibious allowance. I'm also not sure how it would dwarf Overlord: the turns are weekly. Provided there were no naval requirements for Italy or Dragoon, or even with the ships available, the Western Allies would've been able to drop 15 divisions in France in a week. They would just be impossible to supply, and I expect the Soviets will face the same problem if they try to do so. The units would also have no MP's after landing.

Can't the Soviets just ship the units to port?

Are attacks allowed across the Straits of Kerch? What are the "penalties?"

ORIGINAL: alfonso

ORIGINAL: bwheatley

Ok let me replace the word knowingly broken with "wasn't ideal".

Do you really think that they are the same thing?. I thought not, but, of course, English is not my native language. Or is that your way of saying: "sorry, I was rude with my words"

Term i apologise if you feel like i jacked your thread. I just followed where it went. And i meant no disrespect. You're a fellow witp'er and to me that means something.

It was my way of saying my point was it was known the air war wasn't ideal. I release less then ideal software all the time it's the nature of the beast. It wasn't a dig on 2by3 or any of the testers. I changed my verbiage in case someone was super literal when they read what i posted after comrade pointed that out. If i apologise for something i come out and say i'm sorry and i apologise. I take responsibility for any mistakes if i make them. That is how you grow as a person.

Now there is no place for someone to read into it that i was criticising anyone. I've helped test 2by3 games in the past as well as other matrix games. I don't throw it on my signature because i keep things like that close to my chest.

The game is amazing and i'm super glad they released it instead of waiting longer to make things perfect. Because in the software world perfect doesn't come. I don't think i was at all rude maybe a poor choice of words. But i know a some of the testers and they all bust their ass. if anyone took anything i said as an attack on their work i apologise for that. I've done the tester thing before you start from the outset and think it's fun and games but you really have to keep a spreadsheet of bugs and how to trigger them etc. It's a lot of work. I respect that.

Now all i did was point out my frustration when comrade mentioned strat air.

I love most everyone on matrix games forums. They have some of the classiest people i've ever had the pleasure to work/game with. People get heated and that's fine but for someone to call a person a troll i find it one of the most disrespectful things that someone can do.

There now lets hug it out and get back to the business of hand of talking about the best eastern war strategy game out there.