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I played around some with 1st turn North and Center moves last night, and I think the trade off has to be between size of pockets and Turn 2 position/denial of terrain. While in the Center even a fairly conservative move will yield good results (as long as the swamps are covered well), the conundrum is the North - the seemingly "easier" part (units rout with at the hint of a strong breeze here, wide open spaces).

I can cut off Riga, take the Baltic ports, even take Daugavpils with Manstein (appropriately), and get all three panzer divisions across the Dvina by the end of turn one. This is at the expense of perhaps 10-15 routed units that will usually flee outside of the pocket. Or, I can make a wonderful northern pocket and face a new line of Soviets across the Dvina (which will be broken as it is close enough to supply, but it will slow me down.

Question - is speed or is destruction more important in AGN?

Speed is the main thing for AGN. Once you pause a turn or 2, those swamp hexes become a pain in the butt

ORIGINAL: PeeDeeAitch

Question - is speed or is destruction more important in AGN?

I lean toward speed. Less time for the Soviets to build an ever widening circle of forts around Leningrad and the Ilmen lake area.

Question - is speed or is destruction more important in AGN?

Speed - getting past Pskov before the Leningrad defences solidify is essential if you want to go for the right hook or the direct jab. I have managed to get across the river next to Pskov on turn 3 once with a lucky attack by the SS motorised boys.

I can get across the river on turn 2 about 70% of the time, but then you stall out due to fuel and trying to keep from being cut off. Takes till about turn 5 before you can safely make the plunge deeper. And by that time it is a slog.......for me anyway. Still trying to master the North.

Mynok, can you replicate that move past Minsk? Closest I can get is JUST 1-hex short of the rail line to the SE. Only did it once, though.

I would also like to see how to get Panzers to the other side of the Dvinia. Getting right to the River is no problem, getting across probably means blowing away all the units right in front of Pz Gp 4 I imagine, but just guessing.

I think that is what you have to do to kill those turns your unit makes around the ZOC. I have never tried it, so speculating. You could probably get behind Minsk but you will have to sacrifice pockets.

Even if you cut the one rail behind Minsk, can't they still get out on that southern spur? Pretty sure I could never get a unit to break that one too.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Mynok, can you replicate that move past Minsk? Closest I can get is JUST 1-hex short of the rail line to the SE. Only did it once, though.

I would also like to see how to get Panzers to the other side of the Dvinia. Getting right to the River is no problem, getting across probably means blowing away all the units right in front of Pz Gp 4 I imagine, but just guessing.

I will try, it will be an inexpert couple of screenshots.

wrong thread

Guys, don't sweat the industry in Minsk.

I'm actually strongly considering letting it burn in future games and using all the turn 1 rail cap on moving units.

(I move units FORWARD, goddamit, none of this runaway crap.)

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Guys, don't sweat the industry in Minsk.

I'm actually strongly considering letting it burn in future games and using all the turn 1 rail cap on moving units.

(I move units FORWARD, goddamit, none of this runaway crap.)

I was wondering about that. It's not like there is a T-34 Factory in Minsk or anything, just a couple small-ish plants. I wonder if it's better to bag more units, or just get forward.

I still want to see Mynok's turn though, and want to see how you get accross the Dvina in force

Q-Ball,

You mean like this? II have armor across the Divina River with another that can cross next turn. You have to sacrifice pocket for speed and distance.

I'd still suggest evacuating armament factories. You have a surplus of heavy industry, but not a surplus of armament factories.

The armament factory is admittedly a tougher choice. I'm still tempted to abandon it. It takes a very long time for the Soviets to eat through their initial surplus of armament points.

Now the next question, is it better to cross the Dvina on a wide front (allowing more turn 2 options) at the (fairly great) risk that the ID in Riga could re-establish supply with the pocket that will always form?

I have done some of the pocket blowing up shown in 2ndACR above, and that can actually mean a fair chance that one of the 41st PanzerD can take Riga, the rest of 56th and 41st cross the Dvina at multiple places and basically can convert most/all of the east bank hexes. The problem is that if Riga does not fall (maybe 50/50 it seems), then the pocket to the SW of Riga will likely be back in contact if a maximum river crossing on a wide front is made.

Again, if speed is the guiding force, then to hell with this chance of re-establishing contact - blow through the pocket initially and take it all. The payoffs are basically all of the 4th PzG across the Dvina, but FAR less surrounded on turn 2...

I would not worry about Riga. Even against a human. Any re-contact with the "pocket" will be crush turn 2 anyway. Plus if you look, I have 2 Motorized units next to Riga. They would shoot across to link with Armor Div while infantry closes Riga down.

Speed is the key. It is a royal pain if you allow the Russian to dig in along Pskov river front. Plus all the danged swamps and mountains. Allow him to get established good, and well, that might be your defense line come winter.

That is what I figured - the advance I like is a wide crossing of the Dvina, setting up a broad range of possibilities for turn 2. I will post a screenshot of my ideas later (I have to teach and have office hours until late afternoon).

No problem, I have done the broad front across the river by using the motorized units there instead of Riga. Turn 2, I usually place all 3 armor div so that I clear a 9-10 hex front all the way to Pskov and the motorized Div move from Riga and clear straight east to link back up.

Some times combat goes better than it did here. Danged infantry div did not budge with hasty so had to pop it with deliberate and that forced me to use the next Infantry div to clear farther up. That is one reason why I love this game or all Gary's games, not always the same each time you play.

Yeah, sometimes the north opens up better, sometimes those NKVD units retreat all the way to Moscow and mess up everything.

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Guys, don't sweat the industry in Minsk.

I'm actually strongly considering letting it burn in future games and using all the turn 1 rail cap on moving units.

(I move units FORWARD, goddamit, none of this runaway crap.)

I was wondering about that. It's not like there is a T-34 Factory in Minsk or anything, just a couple small-ish plants. I wonder if it's better to bag more units, or just get forward.

I still want to see Mynok's turn though, and want to see how you get accross the Dvina in force

I'm sure I can reproduce it. The hex you need to get to is: