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RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:30 pm
by micha1100
ORIGINAL: Fänrik Stål
All this does is show that it wasn't inner-German conflicts that prevented German Austria from becoming part of the Reich in 1871, but rather the reality that was Austria-Hungary. There was IMO no way it could realistically be either broken up or included wholesale in the Reich at that time. 1918 is a completely different kettle of fish.
To be clear, I'm not disagreeing with your conclusion about Guderian, just this specific argument.
Okay, I can agree with that. My point is that it was only a political decision to exclude German-Austria from the new German Reich and therefore the incorparation of Austria into Germany was no aggressive annexation, rather Austria came "home into the Reich". It's no coincidence that many Austrian cheered the Wehrmacht when it entered Austria and that the Austrian vote was overwhelmingly for the "Anschluss". Many people unfamiliar with German history believe that what happened with Austria and the Sudetenland was comparable to the later wars, but this is simply not true.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:30 pm
by alfonso
Micha, you are German, so perhaps you know something about the use of the svastika?. Where is the limit? I have seen a lot of Svastikas in the movies (Indiana Jones!). Are those images censured in Germany? Are only forbidden when used as symbol? Are only allowed if the Nazis are the bad guys in the movie? Is it forbidden today to see love movies (in case there were!) of the Third Reich if the main character was a Nazi?
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:38 pm
by Aurelian
I know in the TV series Hogan's Heroes, the German broadcast changed Heil Hitler, (which is illegal to say), to "How high is your corn." when a character gave the party salute.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 3:41 pm
by Zebedee
ORIGINAL: V22 Osprey
Heliodorus, are you having a bad day? Not sure why you think it would be common knowledge for an American to know about GERMAN laws? A country an entire ocean away?
One would imagine 'Horst' knows exactly why and is making a trolling party political broadcast on behalf of Stormfront or whichever other neo-nazi website he crawled out from. In fact, he makes clear that he understands the issues involved in his post.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:07 pm
by KenchiSulla
A guy called Horst Wessel, with the remark "raise high the flag" in his signature asking about svastika's and political correctness of developers....
Wake up guys...
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:08 pm
by Horst Wessell
Moderater you need to lock this thread. There some very informed people here. Also some very hateful posters. In todays society with it's "zero tolerance" being taught in todays schools (my wife is a retired teacher) thought and reasonable discussion is not the norm. Again, I am done with this site.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:16 pm
by Fänrik Stål
ORIGINAL: micha1100
Okay, I can agree with that. My point is that it was only a political decision to exclude German-Austria from the new German Reich and therefore the incorparation of Austria into Germany was no aggressive annexation, rather Austria came "home into the Reich". It's no coincidence that many Austrian cheered the Wehrmacht when it entered Austria and that the Austrian vote was overwhelmingly for the "Anschluss". Many people unfamiliar with German history believe that what happened with Austria and the Sudetenland was comparable to the later wars, but this is simply not true.
Absolutely agree on that.[:)]
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:29 pm
by Lrfss
ORIGINAL: 2ndACR
tm.asp?m=2642120
Here is a mod and an answer from Erik from Matrix Games.
Thanks "2ndACR" for the link as I somehow missed this great Mod! Installed it and love the historical flavor it adds to the experience that is this simulation!
Sincerely,
Lrfss
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:29 pm
by micha1100
ORIGINAL: alfonso
Micha, you are German, so perhaps you know something about the use of the svastika?. Where is the limit? I have seen a lot of Svastikas in the movies (Indiana Jones!). Are those images censured in Germany? Are only forbidden when used as symbol? Are only allowed if the Nazis are the bad guys in the movie? Is it forbidden today to see love movies (in case there were!) of the Third Reich if the main character was a Nazi?
The exact limit is very hard to determine, there are several partly contradicting court decisions. The general rule is that symbols of unconstitutional organisations must not be publicly shown, but that law does not apply when the "protective purpose" of the law is not violated. When exactly this is the case is, of course, anyone's guess. But in historic films these symbols are definitely allowed. For example the great German film "Downfall" about the last days of Hitler (did anyone see it?) uses all the original uniforms and language. The same goes for historical exhibitions.
But outside of those examples the reactions of the authorities are difficult to predict. I, for example, am convinced that a historical wargame like WitE would not violate the German law even if it used original symbols but I'd very much expect the authorities to at least index it. For many "politically correct" people in Germany even re-playing the war is borderline fascist.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:30 pm
by Fänrik Stål
ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell
Moderater you need to lock this thread. There some very informed people here. Also some very hateful posters. In todays society with it's "zero tolerance" being taught in todays schools (my wife is a retired teacher) thought and reasonable discussion is not the norm. Again, I am done with this site.
Don't be silly. You had one response to your original question calling your complaint stupid, but more importantly giving the correct answer to your question, before you started whining about tolerance. Welcome to the Internet. Most people's first experience with gaming forums such as this does not end so well.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:38 pm
by Flaviusx
Heh. Downfall went viral on the internet a long time ago as an endless source of parodies, so, yeah, pretty much everyone has seen at least that by now.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:39 pm
by Mynok
ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder
A guy called Horst Wessel, with the remark "raise high the flag" in his signature asking about svastika's and political correctness of developers....
Wake up guys...
Amen. He deserves zero respect for coming on here with that combination of crap.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 4:44 pm
by sillyflower
Silly me. I have misremembered
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:12 pm
by SgtKachalin
ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell
Moderater you need to lock this thread. There some very informed people here. Also some very hateful posters. In todays society with it's "zero tolerance" being taught in todays schools (my wife is a retired teacher) thought and reasonable discussion is not the norm. Again, I am done with this site.
Hateful? lol Reasonable discussion? lmao! Done again? lol!
Obvious troll is obvious.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:36 pm
by wosung
ORIGINAL: Horst Wessell
Moderater you need to lock this thread. There some very informed people here. Also some very hateful posters. In todays society with it's "zero tolerance" being taught in todays schools (my wife is a retired teacher) thought and reasonable discussion is not the norm. Again, I am done with this site.
It's funny that you started the thread under the heading "Hammer and sickle". But it deals with the swastika.
Those "Where's the swastika?" threads are boring and lead to nowhere. Swastika symbol has sligthly different sub-meanings say in German, US and trans-national internet discourses ("Germans guilt", "right of free speech", "trolling"). Not to mention say Russia or Poland.
Please remember all that Matrix forum neither US nor German or some other national public but a company's privat digital platform. Thus I'm confident that it'll happen what always happens:
Mr. Rutins, Mr. Billings or Mr. von Martial will close this thread.
Regards
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 5:37 pm
by alfonso
ORIGINAL: micha1100
ORIGINAL: alfonso
Micha, you are German, so perhaps you know something about the use of the svastika?. Where is the limit? I have seen a lot of Svastikas in the movies (Indiana Jones!). Are those images censured in Germany? Are only forbidden when used as symbol? Are only allowed if the Nazis are the bad guys in the movie? Is it forbidden today to see love movies (in case there were!) of the Third Reich if the main character was a Nazi?
The exact limit is very hard to determine, there are several partly contradicting court decisions. The general rule is that symbols of unconstitutional organisations must not be publicly shown, but that law does not apply when the "protective purpose" of the law is not violated. When exactly this is the case is, of course, anyone's guess. But in historic films these symbols are definitely allowed. For example the great German film "Downfall" about the last days of Hitler (did anyone see it?) uses all the original uniforms and language. The same goes for historical exhibitions.
But outside of those examples the reactions of the authorities are difficult to predict. I, for example, am convinced that a historical wargame like WitE would not violate the German law even if it used original symbols but I'd very much expect the authorities to at least index it. For many "politically correct" people in Germany even re-playing the war is borderline fascist.
Thank you!
I understand the complexities of dealing with such a delicate issue in your country even today. I think Matrix wanted to be in the safe side, just in case. And yes, I have seen "Downfall"!! Shame on me, I forgot it was a German movie!
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:51 pm
by Theng
The Horst Wessel Song was actually part of the German national anthem during the Hitler years together with the von Fallersleben Deutschland song. Wessel was killed in 1930 by a communist.
I personally think that the name "Horst Wessel" as account name is enough to lock a thread, but hey if freedom of speech extends to such names then it should also extend the rest of this thread. So calling for a thread to be closed in a third post after the person said they were done with this forum and would not visit it again in a second post, lets say, "inconsistent."
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:04 pm
by Aurelian
I think it's time for a lock as the OP's question has been answered.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:18 pm
by Skanvak
Well then we should petition the German gouvernment to consider historcial simulation as being historicla research or the like. As, I do consider games as being educational about history. So I felt this way that it hide german as nazi.
Anyway nice discution for once on this matter.
RE: Hammer and sickle
Posted: Sat Feb 05, 2011 10:38 pm
by LiquidSky
Holywood and others get away with portraying the swastika by putting it backwards.