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IGO-UGO is bad enough as it is. Player 2 has to sit on his duff while Player 1 moves through time and space doing his thing. Then Player 2 warps back in time to the beginning of the turn and starts the clock again but alas, things have already taken place in the time he now has to move through. At least with the 'old method' both sides began counting through the same time space with the same supply. That's as it should have been since both sides began the same period of time in supply.

Now comes the 'New Rules'. No longer does Player 2 only have to deal with Player 1 having the advantage of moving through time and space and killing stuff. Now Player 1 can move through time and space before Player 2 AND get's to reach back in time and remove Player 2's supply that was there when they both began the same exact time period.

If you are number 2 it is a cruel world indeed. [:D]

Well one side has to go first. When player 1 goes, his supply is checked. When player 2 goes, so should his. The disadvantage of having one side have his maneuver take effect immediately after his turn and the other not I think is obvious. Didn't the original TOAW have random player 1? Why was that disposed of I wonder? Sometimes I think Ralph does more meddling with things that are the debatable strong points of the game than things that would unquestionably improve it.

If I recall, the only time the game used the initiative routine was when playing against the AI. Against a human opponent it was not used.

Only thing I'm saying about the new turn order rules is that both sides begin the turn at the same time period. Turn two A.M. is turn two A.M. for both sides. So in the A.M. both sides should have the same supply since the turn begins at the EXACT same period of time for both sides, yes?

So logically since both sides begin a turn at the exact same point in time they both have the supply they had at that exact same point in time. Yet side one can take that supply side two had and nullify it. It's as though side one could reach back in time and change the physical world.

It's 6 A.M. on turn six. Side one has all his units in supply. Side two has all his units in supply. With the old supply rules both sides would remain in supply the entire turn since they both began in supply. That's logical. Time has not advanced yet for both sides. And that's what a turn is. The advancement of time for both sides.

So, side one moves and surrounds one unit of side two. With the old supply rules that surrounded unit would remain in supply for the entire turn and that is logical since time for that unit has not yet happened. It's still 6 A.M. for that unit because side two has not had it's turn and time has not yet advanced for side two.

With the new turn order rules side one can surround that unit and take the supply that it has and remove it BEFORE IT'S EVEN USED. In effect side one goes back in time and puts that unit of side two out of supply BEFORE 6 A.M.

IGO-UGO has enough time/space problems without throwing in yet another one. Initially I thought the new turn order was ok and for the most part it is. Now upon considering it from a logical supply perspective it's probably a bad thing for supply considerations.

Now if someone can logically show me how side one can reach back in time before the beginning of the current turn and remove side two's supply fine. But I can't see any logical argument for that level of time travel.

You can't go through and cherry pick which items in the new turn order you can use. That is very unfortunate since most of them appear to be a good thing.

The new turn order is not quite as bad as War in the East where time/space is thrown out entirely and the fanbois speak of how realistic the game is. [:D]

ORIGINAL: Panama

If I recall, the only time the game used the initiative routine was when playing against the AI. Against a human opponent it was not used.

Only thing I'm saying about the new turn order rules is that both sides begin the turn at the same time period. Turn two A.M. is turn two A.M. for both sides. So in the A.M. both sides should have the same supply since the turn begins at the EXACT same period of time for both sides, yes?

So logically since both sides begin a turn at the exact same point in time they both have the supply they had at that exact same point in time. Yet side one can take that supply side two had and nullify it. It's as though side one could reach back in time and change the physical world.

It's 6 A.M. on turn six. Side one has all his units in supply. Side two has all his units in supply. With the old supply rules both sides would remain in supply the entire turn since they both began in supply. That's logical. Time has not advanced yet for both sides. And that's what a turn is. The advancement of time for both sides.

So, side one moves and surrounds one unit of side two. With the old supply rules that surrounded unit would remain in supply for the entire turn and that is logical since time for that unit has not yet happened. It's still 6 A.M. for that unit because side two has not had it's turn and time has not yet advanced for side two.

With the new turn order rules side one can surround that unit and take the supply that it has and remove it BEFORE IT'S EVEN USED. In effect side one goes back in time and puts that unit of side two out of supply BEFORE 6 A.M.

IGO-UGO has enough time/space problems without throwing in yet another one. Initially I thought the new turn order was ok and for the most part it is. Now upon considering it from a logical supply perspective it's probably a bad thing for supply considerations.

Now if someone can logically show me how side one can reach back in time before the beginning of the current turn and remove side two's supply fine. But I can't see any logical argument for that level of time travel.

You can't go through and cherry pick which items in the new turn order you can use. That is very unfortunate since most of them appear to be a good thing.

The change has been justified as this was previously only possible for player 2. Player 2 surrounded an enemy unit and in the following player 1 turn it was unsupplied. Player 1 had to wait until his next turn for an enemy unit to become unsupplied.

Now, as you point it out this should have been adjusted the other way.. so that player 1 units that were cut off would be unsupplied only in the next player 2 turn.

Or make it WEGO. (<--- dreaming [8|])

The new turn order is not quite as bad as War in the East where time/space is thrown out entirely and the fanbois speak of how realistic the game is.

Hehe. Absolutely. Totally agree.