Matrix Games Forums

You're going to add an acompanying document to the TOE scenario,

I was very much hoping to avoid it as I see a document becoming an uncontrolable monster of much confusion. I'm hoping it will be manageable with simple footnotes. Additionally, Klink is soon to start a dedicated thread, and then there will be the ability to ask questions anyone might have with the contributors having the option to answer.

I haven't said that..

I know, I was responding to Panama's comments so that he would have a clearer idea of what we are doing.

Then, of course, you have the issue of how many men are in the squad. That varies quite a bit. I tend to build units on a per-man basis. That's easy to do: Just put the stuff you're going to include in the unit into a pile, stir, and build standardized squads out of the pile. You end up with a suite of squads in the unit, but it gives you finer control of the unit's overall strength.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

You're going to add an acompanying document to the TOE scenario,

I was very much hoping to avoid it as I see a document becoming an uncontrolable monster of much confusion. I'm hoping it will be manageable with simple footnotes. Additionally, Klink is soon to start a dedicated thread, and then there will be the ability to ask questions anyone might have with the contributors having the option to answer.

I haven't said that..

I know, I was responding to Panama's comments so that he would have a clearer idea of what we are doing.

Exactly where is the TOE project located?

...you have the issue of how many men are in the squad...

Based on multiple submissions from multiple sources, I think this aspect is beyond the scope of the project. The thinking is that designers will be able to take a template and then adjust that template accordingly, based on intent and test results.

Exactly where is the TOE project located?

It's not available yet, I've got two of the files and Klink has the other. The plan is to start the dedicated thread (soon), receive submissions, add those to what we have, then decide what to do with them.

16th Welle and the Blue Division done.

The division for the 13.Welle has 36 Czech guns, and the unit breakdown lists 36 Czech guns in the artillery regiment plus a heavy artillery battalion. So ... can I assume the division should have more guns, if the heavy battalion is included, or was there maybe not a heavy artillery battalion ? Not sure what to do here, so hopefully you can clarify it, thanks!

Edit - There is a similar situation with the 14.Welle.

and ... 15.Welle divisions should have 24 light 50mm mortars as the regiments have 12 each ?

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The division for the 13.Welle has 36 Czech guns, and the unit breakdown lists 36 Czech guns in the artillery regiment plus a heavy artillery battalion. So ... can I assume the division should have more guns, if the heavy battalion is included, or was there maybe not a heavy artillery battalion ? Not sure what to do here, so hopefully you can clarify it, thanks!

Edit - There is a similar situation with the 14.Welle.

and ... 15.Welle divisions should have 24 light 50mm mortars as the regiments have 12 each ?

Niehorster lists only three artillery battalions (one light, two med) for the 13. Welle: http://niehorster.orbat.com/011_germany ... -welle.htm and three medium battalions for the 14. Welle.

One exception (from 13. Welle) i know of is 319.Inf Div occupying the Channel Islands which had a IV. Abteilung in its Artillerie Regiment from December 41 onwards. But initially it too was raised with three Abteilungen.

ORIGINAL: Telumar...319.Inf Div occupying the Channel Islands...

319.Infanterie Division. Gotta remember that number. If I'm ever involuntarily reincarnated as a German infantryman of the Second World War and asked what division I want to be in, that would be the one.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

The division for the 13.Welle has 36 Czech guns, and the unit breakdown lists 36 Czech guns in the artillery regiment plus a heavy artillery battalion. So ... can I assume the division should have more guns, if the heavy battalion is included, or was there maybe not a heavy artillery battalion ? Not sure what to do here, so hopefully you can clarify it, thanks!

Edit - There is a similar situation with the 14.Welle.

and ... 15.Welle divisions should have 24 light 50mm mortars as the regiments have 12 each ?

13th welle:
- Artillerie-Regiment: 3 leichte Abteilungen mit je 2 Batterien tschechischer Geschütze,
keine schwere Abteilung.


Slight hiccup with my cutting and pasting. Ever so sorry.

When the divisions formed they included an artillery regiment with three battalions. Each battalion had two batteries, making 8 tubes, for a total of 24 for the regiment.

Telumar is correct in that the 319th received more guns later in it's career. It also received a tank unit and an anti-tank unit, both equipped with captured French tanks. I did not include these, as i would never be able to finish this thing if i tried to trace all variations. I'm trying to stick to the TO&E at the time the divisions were mobilized.

Also, note that both the 13th and the 14th welle were eventually sent to the eastern front. Before moving they were upgraded to combat ready divisions, which would have brought them closer to the TO&E of a 1st welle division. I don't have any sources for which divisions got what though.

14th welle:

Abweichung in Gliederung und Ausstattung:
- Wie Divisionen 13. Welle
- Ausstattung mit französischen und anderen Beute-Kfz., Artillerie mit älteren deutschen Geschützen

See above.

15th welle:

oops...

Here is the link to the corrected PDF.

...i would never be able to finish this thing if i tried to trace all variations. I'm trying to stick to the TO&E at the time the divisions were mobilized.

I think that is perfect, plus you put that explanation in the document, which will be attached to the file, plus there are footnotes in the files.

Thanks very much for the clarifications.

Some progress at last. Another welle or two. More to come when time allows!

Gaspadin,

whenever you got time, go visit the pub called 'Baraban' and say Hello! to the lads from me. Walk around 100 yards up Prorizna (opposite Khreschatyk Metro) and take a right into the alleyway.

Oh, and keep the TO&Es coming lad!

kLinK, Oberst

A couple clarifications when you get a chance, pages 69 and 72 both concern the 17.Welle. I was wondering if one was the 17th and the other the 18th, or if the 17th had two separate TOE's. And the division for the page 69 formation maybe should have 18 assault squads and 42 light rifle squads?

Thanks Fred [&o]

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Gaspadin,

whenever you got time, go visit the pub called 'Baraban' and say Hello! to the lads from me. Walk around 100 yards up Prorizna (opposite Khreschatyk Metro) and take a right into the alleyway.

Oh, and keep the TO&Es coming lad!

kLinK, Oberst

Oberst, i've been meaning to ask; did you work in Obolon? If so, i visited your old job a few weeks ago.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

A couple clarifications when you get a chance, pages 69 and 72 both concern the 17.Welle. I was wondering if one was the 17th and the other the 18th, or if the 17th had two separate TOE's. And the division for the page 69 formation maybe should have 18 assault squads and 42 light rifle squads?

Thanks Fred [&o]

The second 17th welle is the 18th welle. Fixed.
As for the second error, it concerns the 17th welle. Those divisions should indeed have 18 Assault squads, and 42 Light rifle squads.
Thanks for catching those!

Updated version (including a few more formations) can be found here.

ORIGINAL: polarenper

ORIGINAL: Oberst_Klink

Gaspadin,

whenever you got time, go visit the pub called 'Baraban' and say Hello! to the lads from me. Walk around 100 yards up Prorizna (opposite Khreschatyk Metro) and take a right into the alleyway.

Oh, and keep the TO&Es coming lad!

kLinK, Oberst

Oberst, i've been meaning to ask; did you work in Obolon? If so, i visited your old job a few weeks ago.

They opened the 2nd IH Kiyiv branch in 2007, I was 'based' near the KPI and lived between Nivki and Svertoshin Metro station.

I had a choice between the two branches. KPI was too far away for me, so i went to Obolon. Did you meet someone named Vika while you were there? She's the DoS these days, and in charge of the course they've sent me on.

Clarification - the Welle 20 Artillery Regiment lists 8-250's and 24-105's, while the division lists 12-150's and 36-105's.

Regiments for the No Welle divisions 343-348 (starting on page 80) have 9 'extra'? bicycle squads.

ORIGINAL: sPzAbt653

Clarification - the Welle 20 Artillery Regiment lists 8-250's and 24-105's, while the division lists 12-150's and 36-105's.

Regiments for the No Welle divisions 343-348 (starting on page 80) have 9 'extra'? bicycle squads.

The regiment listing is correct. The division should have 8 150's and 24 105's. The extra bicycle squads are from the Recon battalion, i simply forgot to add them to the total, which should be 27 bicycle squads.
Thanks again for the proofing!

The division should have 8 150's and 24 105's.

The same with the 338.Inf (page 88). I got it here, but mentioned it so you can change the .pdf.