Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: inqistor
I seriously doubt anything was done to balance forces for better gameplay, so it IS a simulation. It is hard to say, people playing WITPAE for beautiful graphics [:D]

I'm afraid you be wrong Grasshopper. Balance indeed has long been an issue in the game, because as developers, we have to accept the basic premise that being a game, certain compromises must be made not simply for historical accuracy, but balance, usability, and playability. Did all of us get the balance right? Course not......human beings are flawed.....the game is flawed. Grigsby the Great was flawed. One works it out as best they can under the limitations imposed.

The problem is not, how much elements are introduced, but how much of them are under player control.

Its both actually. Grigsby style games have long focused on micro-management levels of detail in combat resolutions and amonst a myriad of player controlable elements. Ironically, it is indeed the ability of players to instantly control most of the elements in the game (unless one does multi turns which counters this a bit) that makes the wargame a game and not a simulation.

A true simulation would simulate the limitations of C3 as well as the limitations of true FOW.

Wouldn't that be fun to be in the dark and to have as little actual control over events as the real life CO's did. [:)]


oh......S-boats. You can't get there from here. Game only allows a static set of statistics.....and there's no mechanism to account for age and tiredness of a vessel outside of the normal SYS accumulation parameters. One could simulate their lack of ability by starting the boats with major SYS but ultimately they can be repaired to "as new". Only other way is to permenantly degrade them via the editor.

Yep. It seems there's a recent tendency for people who know nothing about how things really work to offer long, detailed, gratuitous, and incorrect pieces of advice. Don't much care what they do in the main forum, but they really should keep off the grass in here. Start their own thread or go elsewhere.

Anywho...found another little anecdote that supports the current rating of 14 knots rather than 10 knots.

Admiral IJ Galantin (ret) in Take her deep! page 24 - "...S-24 made her way steadily southward. Our two Nelseco diesels could push us against the Gulf Stream at only ten knots as we plodded along on the surface in rough wintry seas." I'm presuming the Gulf current is something greater than 0.

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Lost in all the wrangling over knots and Canberra vs Brisbane -

Does "MaxSpeed" in game,(among several other factors ie Leadership, Exp, Naval Rating of skipper), affect the ability of a submarine to perfect a firing angle and allow the sub to engage a target?

Or does a sub simply get to fire if a suitable target passes through its hex?

Check with Don, he would probably know. When i worked on subs/ASW with him and JoeD, speed was not a variable we worked with. I'm thinking that it has more to do with moving from hex to hex and fuel consumption vs. setting up an attack.

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Check with Don, he would probably know. When i worked on subs/ASW with him and JoeD, speed was not a variable we worked with. I'm thinking that it has more to do with moving from hex to hex and fuel consumption vs. setting up an attack.

Speed does have some value. It affects the chance for a sub to get into firing position, to get past the escorts, and to escape. Not the actual torpedoing, just getting in and getting out.

Faster is better.

A good read that demonstrates how hard life was onboard an S boat is "Pigboat 39". It has a submerged speed of 9 kts and surface of 12.

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

Check with Don, he would probably know. When i worked on subs/ASW with him and JoeD, speed was not a variable we worked with. I'm thinking that it has more to do with moving from hex to hex and fuel consumption vs. setting up an attack.

Speed does have some value. It affects the chance for a sub to get into firing position, to get past the escorts, and to escape. Not the actual torpedoing, just getting in and getting out.

Faster is better.

Don,

When you refer to "speed", are you using maximum or cruise. IOW, do the subs use maximum speed to get into and out of the firing position?

Alfred

The sub uses max speed. The TF uses what ever speed it is set for until the sub is spotted. Surface ships use max speed when engaging subs.

If the sub is not spotted, the ships in the TF will still be at "TF speed" when the sub attacks.

Thanks Don for the clarification. I suspect that all those on the main forum who complain about their subs targeting the escorts are failing to take into account the ramification of using max speed, and of course both the escorts and the subs usually have a much higher maximum speed than do the merchantmen.

Alfred

ORIGINAL: Nikademus
oh......S-boats. You can't get there from here. Game only allows a static set of statistics.....and there's no mechanism to account for age and tiredness of a vessel outside of the normal SYS accumulation parameters. One could simulate their lack of ability by starting the boats with major SYS but ultimately they can be repaired to "as new". Only other way is to permenantly degrade them via the editor.

My experiment with Shinano, clearly shows, that it is possible to increase BOTH durability, and speed, during conversion.
If it is possible to increase, I am guessing it is also possible to DECREASE it. So every submarine, could decrease its durability, during every upgrade, to indicate its gradual worning out.

I am not saying, that it is fair (submarines of given type begin game at different dates, but can upgrade at the same), or pretty solution. Or even useful in any way. Nevertheless, it is possible under current engine. And pretty easy to implement.

You misunderstand me. I said there is no way you can simulate in the game engine the permenant or semi-permenant degredation of elder units and it's impact on their performance beyond the set of static stats available in the editor. Obviously one could make the S-class or any class for that matter less viable by making permenant changes in the editor on speed, dur, etc. which then makes all ships under that class have the same exact attributes. If thats what you want to do....then have at it.