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Will the ASW force actually react ? Or will the order to follow another TF be more important ?

I have seem them drop out of the formation. I guess that it depends of TF commander aggresiveness

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

Will the ASW force actually react ? Or will the order to follow another TF be more important ?

Reaction seems to trump following. That was the problem in the Coral Sea Turkey Shoot.

It looks like an elephant train!

I have this image of my raptor pack trying to take down individuals from this herd of brontosaurs in a defensive huddle. No wonder it doesn't work!

I prefer to use follow orders as little as possible, since I observed following TFs falling behind and causing slowdowns. Certainly, in any critical operations I'll direct every TF separately now.

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Without revealing any trade secrets, here are few things to try.

1. - dont fight it...pretty simple, but run your behind away at maximum speed...set ambushes with your CV's and only spring if the enemy is broken up.
2. - manage pilots so only 70+ skill pilots are aboard.
3. - if you expect to be outnumbered, change the game so that the odds improve in your favor. This inlcudes adding fighter ssquadrons, swapping out bomber for fighter squadrons, and even the extreme of putting only fighters on the carriers (and moving your bombers to a nearby land base.
4. - only fight in range of a good airbase with many fighters that can supplement CAP and provide incremental bomber support
5. - know how many fighters you need to withstand enemy onslaughts. 2 to 1 minimum needed to deflect most of an enemy attack. Three or 4 to one desirable.
6. - search heavily and at maximum distance when naval or carrier combat is a possibility. Dont engage if you are that outnumbered!
7. - use picket TF's of a DD / pg, AK, PT, etc or two out a dozen or more hexes. They will encounter the enemy first and provide critical warning
8. - put BB's in your CV TF's. they will take many of the hits
9. - be patient. Once you've established a decisive battle enemy strategy, you should utilize deception to draw away the enemy away from your intended target. Also use smaller jumps rather than long leap invasions.
10 - mass a dozen or more subs. In 42, mainly spotters, in 43, they will take their toll
Hope this helps.

Regarding #7 - isn't this a bit gamey when one considers how the game engine works?

I know in real life, the allies used picket DDs as a way of providing early detection of incoming raids directed at carriers, but the way it works in the game is completely different. When one side uses these picket TFs, the other side's airstrikes concentrate on the pickets and fail to attack the juicy targets behind the pickets. How many of us have seen the ridiculous results where a strike of 100+ bombers hits a single picket xAKL and fails to attack the intended target?

If there are no house rules, then by all means try #7. But I would think any reasonable opponent would demand a house rule against single-ship bait/picket TFs.

ORIGINAL: herwin
What's the downside of operating eight carriers in a single TF? I don't think the coordination penalty matters much at that point. Is it vulnerable to SAGs? Resupply? That you can track it continuously from across the ocean?

If it have more than 15 ships, it gets penalty in surface, and air fight.
And coordination will kick in during attacks. It will have trouble sending any large strike, so there will be probably lots of small packets, unable to get through CAP.

But yeah, in defensive CAP it rulez

ORIGINAL: inqistor

ORIGINAL: herwin
What's the downside of operating eight carriers in a single TF? I don't think the coordination penalty matters much at that point. Is it vulnerable to SAGs? Resupply? That you can track it continuously from across the ocean?

If it have more than 15 ships, it gets penalty in surface, and air fight.
And coordination will kick in during attacks. It will have trouble sending any large strike, so there will be probably lots of small packets, unable to get through CAP.

But yeah, in defensive CAP it rulez

Yep.

My opponent quickly realised I was trying to slip SAGs past his screen, and what he describes is his solution. Now I need to figure out how to bypass his leading SAG...

Why are you fixated on getting his carriers at this point? At this point in the game, YOU WILL NOT WIN THAT BATTLE. It is really that simple. You are making the classic mistake of fixating on the point of his strength, and missing the vastness of his weakness. The downside of concentration for him is that every other point on the map is not threatened by KB. Don't wring your hands in frustration, lick you chops at the opportunity!

ORIGINAL: herwin
...

July 14 1942. The force that got stonked had six CVs. I lost two early trying to knock out the KB in narrow seas off Borneo. That was before he learned to run a heavy SAG ahead.

I have been pushing elsewhere.

That seems to answer the original question. Too little, too early.

Maybe bad dice on top of it, but it appears you were too confident and/or too aggressive without being willing to accept potentially disastrous consequences.

Trying this stunt twice doesn't help either. [;)]

If there is any advice I would give to a PBEM player it would be to play as if you really were the commander in chief, with all the consequences, and no replays. That will take some of the grand (unrealistic?) moments of the game away, but it will be a lot more immersive.

Icedawg,

I didnt advocate 20 seperate picket TF's. That's probably gamey in the sense that the combat routine will divert more air assets to attack the pickets than most humans would ever order. I suggest a handful at most to cover the various forward approaches outside search range. This is especially useful for the allies, as they dont have Jake loaded AV's to search. It also applies to empire when you are traversing an expanse with limited or no LBA coverage.

Such tactics come at a cost of likely losses if you encounter enemy forces, so there is no free lunch in this tactic. You need ships that can match the Full speed of the TF, as a result it usually is DD's that take on the role...and take attritional losses.

Far more gamey is sending a small SCTF with at least one cruiser ahead of the carriers in the turn you expect combat for the sole purpose of absorbing air hits. That will divert many enemy air assets away from your carriers and can tip major battles if your enemy doesnt do the same thing. That in my mind is a no-no.

This sounds reasonable. I thought you were talking about sending a screen of single ship TFs one or two hexes in front of your CV TF and using them to absorb the air attacks. By sailing a solid 5 or 6 hexes ahead of your carriers, you are making it impossible for your carriers to hit the enemy on the same turn your pickets get pummeled.

I've often found that the best way to win carrier combat is to avoid carrier combat. Try to lure the enemy into a place where you have LB air superiority and let the LB fighters and bombers wear it down. After a couple of rounds of that, you might just be able to get in a decent carrier based strike. You just have to make the bait enticing enough.

The key is knowing when to fight, and knowing when to 'Shoot and Scoot'. That is, raid somewhere to make your opponent respond to you...a diversion if you will.

ORIGINAL: Shark7

I've often found that the best way to win carrier combat is to avoid carrier combat. Try to lure the enemy into a place where you have LB air superiority and let the LB fighters and bombers wear it down. After a couple of rounds of that, you might just be able to get in a decent carrier based strike. You just have to make the bait enticing enough.

The key is knowing when to fight, and knowing when to 'Shoot and Scoot'. That is, raid somewhere to make your opponent respond to you...a diversion if you will.

I've been trying that. He doesn't lure. Too many mousetrappings have made him careful.

Concentration of the Jap carriers has been referred to as the death star approach. You do not go near the death star in the first 18 mos of the war. You can look for opptys to attrit his planes and pilots with LBA, but in general leave the field to the death star except judicious LBA opportunities. Concentrating his carriers involves advantages for the savvy Allied leader. 1st its hard to hide a death star, particularly if it travels with slower CVLs so as mentioned above pick a spot far from the DS and bring your forces to bear. Just don't burrow in. 2 The Japs have a delicate time table,look for opptys to disrupt it.

Massed KB is a bit of a challenge. As several have said, you dont fight it unless you can significantly augment with LBA. You also dont invade when the KB whereabouts are unkown or known to be nearby. You need to use deception and make the enemy choose between two invasions far apart. This means that you need to think through your LBA and base force strategy thoroughly and well in advance.

Also, a massed KB probably means athe dreaded super defensive amphibious pulse too. So when you invade, you need to be ready for the KB to show up, cause it prpobably will. This means short jump tactics and massed LBA with high naval attack skills.

Said another way, have patience and discipline.

I can do this. The problem with the massive KB is that it can put 135-150 Zeros into the air without breathing hard.

IRL though no one was in charge of this massive CAP. 12 different officers on 12 different ships are launching and recovering CAP whenever they feel like it without reference to the Fleet Commander's priorities. As is amply illustrated in "Shattered Sword" that more than any other single factor kept the KB from spotting and launching an anti-ship strike in time to prevent the loss of the initial 3 carriers at Midway.

Furthermore, with no one in control of the 135-150 CAP or even within the squadron themselves it would be likely to engage any target that got spotted with absolutely nothing held in reserve (again as in Midway). And again (as in Midway) the CAP ignored the Yorktown SBDs and concentrated entirely against the Yorktown TBDs (and escort). The CAP at the time the SBDs arrived on the scene was the largest of the entire morning.

The Japanese Navy never developed a better system for handling their CAP than trusting to the "warrior spirit". The KB (and maybe Ryujo but surely none of the other CVLs/CVEs) was a fine instrument for applying massed firepower. But it lacked any development of a defensive doctrine whatsoever throughout the entire war. It's defensive prowess is purely (and wrongly) a function of the game system.

Although the KB could claim two Pyrrhic victories in the early going (Coral Sea and Santa Cruz) its RL overall performance hardly justifies the game performance accorded it. It never walked away from any battle with its air groups worthy of another fight...it never provided Japan with a decent enough victory in CV combat to allow exploitation of its so-called victory.

What is this "SAG" many speak of?

(I have searched the forum and got many hits for "SAG," but none explained the term nor the use of said SAG.)

Surface Action Group - slightly more modern term I think but used a lot here.

Roger

"He may be pounding your bases one at a time, but he's not sinking a single one of them. He's burning gobs and gobs of fuel, so try to keep him moving, either by carrot or stick. You don't defeat the massed KB by CV air until you have fully upgraded all of your CVW's with next generation planes, Hellcats, etc. Until then, you try to pick away at the massed KB with LBA if he strays close enough, and with SS's. As frustrating as it is to watch dud after dud dent the side of enemy ships, it's just as scary for your opponent to see it, if the ships in question are his precious CV's. Remember, you will get many more, he will not. "

Get your subs in there. Try to put in packs of 2-3. I've seen Jap CVTFs break off an attack because subs were in the area. I've also managed to pick off a Jap carrier or two with submarines.

ORIGINAL: derhexer

"He may be pounding your bases one at a time, but he's not sinking a single one of them. He's burning gobs and gobs of fuel, so try to keep him moving, either by carrot or stick. You don't defeat the massed KB by CV air until you have fully upgraded all of your CVW's with next generation planes, Hellcats, etc. Until then, you try to pick away at the massed KB with LBA if he strays close enough, and with SS's. As frustrating as it is to watch dud after dud dent the side of enemy ships, it's just as scary for your opponent to see it, if the ships in question are his precious CV's. Remember, you will get many more, he will not. "

Get your subs in there. Try to put in packs of 2-3. I've seen Jap CVTFs break off an attack because subs were in the area. I've also managed to pick off a Jap carrier or two with submarines.

Working on it.