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RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:04 pm
by timmyab
^Yes, I've just recently started noticing this and I suspect that it's about to cost me dearly in my current game vs Ketza.Some apparently strong positions just evaporate at the slightest hint of battle whilst other seemingly weak units hold against overwhelming odds.I'm starting to think that a carpet defence is the best way to defend because it's guaranteed to sap MPs and what you need more than anything when defending a position is certainty.If the CVs on counters aren't reliable I'd much rather they weren't there at all.Same goes for forts.As a defender, you need to have at least a rough idea of how strong a position is otherwise the carpet is the only obvious (and boring) choice.

RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:12 pm
by 76mm
ORIGINAL: timmyab
Some apparently strong positions just evaporate at the slightest hint of battle whilst other seemingly weak units hold against overwhelming odds.I'm starting to think that a carpet defence is the best way to defend because it's guaranteed to sap MPs and what you need more than anything when defending a position is certainty.If the CVs on counters aren't reliable I'd much rather they weren't there at all.Same goes for forts.As a defender, you need to have at least a rough idea of how strong a position is otherwise the carpet is the only obvious (and boring) choice.
These are exactly the same conclusions I came to...

RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 1:34 pm
by Jakerson
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
CV numbers are an indication of units combat power, which is in turn, a function of unit ground elements accuracy, damage, rof, experience and fatigue. Besides that, combat power is influenced by terrain, weather and leader checks.

Basing all of your decisions on CV alone is not a sound idea. High CV correlates with high combat power, but not always and can often be very misleading.

My point was that looking equipment and manpower numbers don’t mean that much. CV is most important stat. You really can play this game never looking how many men and equipment units have or never looking OOB but other way around playing would be very hard.

I don’t base my decision just CV as you suggest I always look terrains, I analyze battle reports so I can estimate where my enemy has deployed most of artillery and air support. I always recon where enemy reserves are and what is quality of reserves as best as I can. CV is just where you begin but still it is most important stat in this game.



RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 2:23 pm
by Capt Cliff
Perhaps the concept of tactical expertise is missing from the games algorithm. I don't mean experience in battle or being battle hardened. The German was the inventor's of the Blitzkrieg and therefore had a tactical edge over the Russians in mechanized warfare. They held this edge until 43' then Russian superior numbers of troops came into affect helping the Russians. A similar analogy can be seen with Napoleon. Boney's use of divisions and Corps and the French Army's tactical expertise made them victorious in 1805. But when the Allies, meaning the Brit allies, learned to dance with the French and model their armies after the French they did better. They also avoided battle with the Master, which helped.

So I'd say in 41' the German mechanized tactical expertise was like a 4:1 advantage (or 5:1), in 42' it was down to 3:1 (the Russians were learning but could only win in a battle of attrition), but by 43' it was down to 1:1 (1.5:1) due to German loses of experience troops and the Russians finally getting the hang of it.

IMHO

RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:40 pm
by Jakerson
ORIGINAL: Capt Cliff

Perhaps the concept of tactical expertise is missing from the games algorithm. I don't mean experience in battle or being battle hardened. The German was the inventor's of the Blitzkrieg and therefore had a tactical edge over the Russians in mechanized warfare. They held this edge until 43' then Russian superior numbers of troops came into affect helping the Russians. A similar analogy can be seen with Napoleon. Boney's use of divisions and Corps and the French Army's tactical expertise made them victorious in 1805. But when the Allies, meaning the Brit allies, learned to dance with the French and model their armies after the French they did better. They also avoided battle with the Master, which helped.

So I'd say in 41' the German mechanized tactical expertise was like a 4:1 advantage (or 5:1), in 42' it was down to 3:1 (the Russians were learning but could only win in a battle of attrition), but by 43' it was down to 1:1 (1.5:1) due to German loses of experience troops and the Russians finally getting the hang of it.

IMHO

This is feature that is already in the game Soviets mobile troops are lot weaker than German. Soviet mobile troops also get a lot less moving points than German.

Soviet Motorized troops have only 25MP at -41 while German panzer divisions have 50MP. German panzer divisions can move double as fast as soviet ones and is a lot stronger than soviet counterpart.

There is no sence to penaltize soviet even more than currently it is already. Soviet mobile troops really dont shine until they get tank corpses and even then it takes long time to train and build them to have any chance aganst German panzer divisions.


RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 3:57 pm
by sillyflower
ORIGINAL: neuromancer

Although as has been said, it may be complete fantasy to say that the Axis has anything but the slimmest chance of winning the war, so a game victory doesn't necessarily have to mean they will win the war.  That probably means doing significantly better than the historical performance.
That's why I always play with house rule 'victory' means doing better than historically so there's a point to Germans hanging on.

RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 4:16 pm
by Jakerson
ORIGINAL: sillyflower

ORIGINAL: neuromancer

Although as has been said, it may be complete fantasy to say that the Axis has anything but the slimmest chance of winning the war, so a game victory doesn't necessarily have to mean they will win the war.  That probably means doing significantly better than the historical performance.
That's why I always play with house rule 'victory' means doing better than historically so there's a point to Germans hanging on.

WITP Admirals edition is fun to play as Japanese even when you know that you will be overwhelmed by USA in the end with those mega zord CV and CVE TF's that USA can get end of the war.

It is still fun to try bashing USA fleets with coastal guns and kamikaze attacks even when you lose island after island you could still win scored victory.

USA and UK gave Soviet Union 400 000 trucks, 10 000 planes and 5000 tanks and 10 000 artillery as lend lease and Soviet had massive production of own. Germany had very slim chance to go through all that stuff I am very skeptical that Germany even had fuel to blitzkrieg all a way huge Soviet Union just from logistical reasons winning war on eastern front was impossible for Germans. It still doesn’t mean to have fun war-game out of it.

RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:32 pm
by tigercub

Tiger

RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:35 pm
by tigercub

quote:

But even in the last battles for Berlin, the Germans were out-killing Soviets, just not to the degree they did in 1941.

This is not true.
ORIGINAL: tigercub

Helpless ill think you will find it is true Not because the germans were better at his stage they were mostly Karputt,but because the Russians were doing crazy attacks and pushing too hard to finnish the war and get to berlin before the US/UK .under Stalins orders!

Tiger

RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:17 am
by randallw
I like how someone is using the term 'Tank Corpses'. [:D]

RE: Open your mind!

Posted: Fri Aug 12, 2011 3:38 am
by Jakerson
ORIGINAL: randallw

I like how someone is using the term 'Tank Corpses'. [:D]

Thats what they are at least very early 42. Eatch time they are used you have to pull them behind the lines to refit as they get massive casulties in every battle.