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RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:46 pm
by mjk428
ORIGINAL: vettim89
ORIGINAL: mjk428
According to Matrix...
War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition brings you the most realistic and immersive WWII Pacific Theater wargame ever!
Those that think it's just a game should play
Risk.
Not to be snarky but you make the point with the post. According to Matrix it is a war
GAME sold by a company called Matrix
GAMES.
You're not being snarky, you're being willfully ignorant. Matrix GAMES claims AE to be the most realistic Pacific WARgame ever. That's a hell of a claim. If their slogan was "Lower your expectations, it's just a game" I bet they'd have sold a lot less units.
A wargame is not just a game. The people of this hobby used to understand this and raised their freak flag high. Obviously a commercial wargame has limitations when it comes to realism. However, the emphasis has always been, until relatively recently, to strive for realism over play balance when it comes to historical wargames. It's only here at Matrix that we have boobs telling those of us that like some history with our historic wargames to "read a book" or "watch Victory at Sea". As if we already don't do both.
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:46 pm
by USSAmerica
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Dude, you need to share that crack with the rest of us! It must be some good stuff!
I does not surprise me that you have a desire to use crack. Or anything like it. Every time you post something, the effects of your prior use are demonstrated for all to read.
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:49 pm
by USSAmerica
ORIGINAL: mjk428
ORIGINAL: vettim89
ORIGINAL: mjk428
According to Matrix...
Those that think it's just a game should play Risk.
Not to be snarky but you make the point with the post. According to Matrix it is a war
GAME sold by a company called Matrix
GAMES.
You're not being snarky, you're being willfully ignorant. Matrix GAMES claims AE to be the most realistic Pacific WARgame ever. That's a hell of a claim. If their slogan was "Lower your expectations, it's just a game" I bet they'd have sold a lot less units.
A wargame is not just a game. The people of this hobby used to understand this and raised their freak flag high. Obviously a commercial wargame has limitations when it comes to realism. However, the emphasis has always been, until relatively recently, to strive for realism over play balance when it comes to historical wargames. It's only here at Matrix that we have boobs telling those of us that like some history with our historic wargames to "read a book" or "watch Victory at Sea". As if we already don't do both.
Do you know of any other
more realistic Pacific War
game?
I don't. If there is one that is available, I would love to know about it! [:)]
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:51 pm
by Shark7
Hmm, isn't it marvelous?
JWE comes in here and states that its a game and you should just enjoy it. Yet some people insist it isn't a game?
It is a game. If you expect it to replay history exactly as it happened you are in for dissapointment. Also, if it were to play out just as history what would be the point in playing? The reason it is a game is that the player can influence what happens. If you couldn't, then you are watching a fancy news reel of history.
And on my argument, even if the variables are different the game does follow history...it is impossible for the Japanese player to win the game against a competent Allied player. Historically, even if the codes are not broken, PH isn't a sneak attack, etc; Japan could not win the war...it might have taken longer or might have even been shorter, but the outcome is the same. Japan can not win in the end.
So basically, people need to quit worrying about the fact that the Japanese player may or may not produce a historical number of airframes, or if Midway takes place or not. Just enjoy the game and know that you the player can change some things to affect the end game, but not change the outcome of the end game. [:)]
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:55 pm
by mdiehl
Matrix GAMES claims AE to be the most realistic Pacific WARgame ever. That's a hell of a claim. If their slogan was "Lower your expectations, it's just a game" I bet they'd have sold a lot less units.
Exactly.
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 9:58 pm
by mjk428
ORIGINAL: USS America
Do you know of any other more realistic Pacific War game?
I don't. If there is one that is available, I would love to know about it! [:)]
I don't take issue with Matrix's claim. That blurb gets it right. I take issue with those that are downplaying the importance of realiism in an historical wargame.
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:00 pm
by mdiehl
Do you know of any other more realistic Pacific War game?
I can name FOUR that do a more realistic job of modeling battle outcomes based on ship stats, a.c. stats, and so forth. They are:
Pacific War by Mark Harmon.
Carrier Battles (Rising Sun Simulations).
SoPac and the other "Great Naval Battles of WW2" games by Avalanche Press.
And, ancient though it is (and not the best of the 4 wrt realism but very easy to play) Flat Top (AH/Yaquinto).
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:05 pm
by vettim89
ORIGINAL: mjk428
ORIGINAL: vettim89
ORIGINAL: mjk428
According to Matrix...
Those that think it's just a game should play Risk.
Not to be snarky but you make the point with the post. According to Matrix it is a war
GAME sold by a company called Matrix
GAMES.
You're not being snarky, you're being willfully ignorant. Matrix GAMES claims AE to be the most realistic Pacific WARgame ever. That's a hell of a claim. If their slogan was "Lower your expectations, it's just a game" I bet they'd have sold a lot less units.
A wargame is not just a game. The people of this hobby used to understand this and raised their freak flag high. Obviously a commercial wargame has limitations when it comes to realism. However, the emphasis has always been, until relatively recently, to strive for realism over play balance when it comes to historical wargames. It's only here at Matrix that we have boobs telling those of us that like some history with our historic wargames to "read a book" or "watch Victory at Sea". As if we already don't do both.
I have to disagree with your assement. Yes, wargames as a genre are different than say a "family" game like Monopoly. Some are quite simple. One of my favorite games of all times is Avalon Hill's Victory in the Pacific. Now that game was simplistic to say the least but still was quite enjoyable to play. Certainly WitP and WitP/AE are a far cry from that game. That does not change the fact that they are still games. There are things built into the system that are indeed for play balance and to make the game enjoyable to play from both sides. The Japan player's ability to extensive modify his a/c OOB is the perfect example of this type of allowance. I don't see how you can look at even that one issue and not conclude that it was included not for accuracy nor historocity; it was included to give the Japan player the opportunity to play deeper into the game before things became hopeless.
Yes, WitP/AE is an incredibly complex game. It is however first and foremost designed for the enjoyment of its players. As such it has more than succesfully accomlpished it's goal. However, looking at it as a simulation sytem meant to 100% accurate portray WWII in the PTO is, in my opinion, misguided
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Fri Aug 26, 2011 10:15 pm
by Alfred
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Do you know of any other more realistic Pacific War game?
I can name FOUR that do a more realistic job of modeling battle outcomes based on ship stats, a.c. stats, and so forth. They are:
Pacific War by Mark Harmon.
Carrier Battles (Rising Sun Simulations).
SoPac and the other "Great Naval Battles of WW2" games by Avalanche Press.
And, ancient though it is (and not the best of the 4 wrt realism but very easy to play) Flat Top (AH/Yaquinto).
And these are all computer games.[8|]
Alfred
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:02 am
by ilovestrategy
I dunno. I looked at the top of the forum page and it reads "Matrix GAMES Forums". It's a realistic game, but a game nonetheless.
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:25 am
by mjk428
Just because you're in Newark, it doesn't mean you're not in New Jersey. It's a game. It's a wargame. It's a Strategic Simulation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_Simulations,_Inc.
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:58 am
by JeffroK
ORIGINAL: mdiehl
Do you know of any other more realistic Pacific War game?
I can name FOUR that do a more realistic job of modeling battle outcomes based on ship stats, a.c. stats, and so forth. They are:
Pacific War by Mark Harmon.
Carrier Battles (Rising Sun Simulations).
SoPac and the other "Great Naval Battles of WW2" games by Avalanche Press.
And, ancient though it is (and not the best of the 4 wrt realism but very easy to play) Flat Top (AH/Yaquinto).
You left out The Eagle and the Sun!
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:30 am
by LoBaron
ORIGINAL: Alfred
LoBaron,
When I first saw the title of this thread, I was soooooooo excited.
Then when I read it, I was sooooooo disappointed.
Why the different reactions? My initial reaction was, great, at long last in stereotypical Teutonic efficiency someone is going to discuss on the forum what is really important; how one can take advantage of the opportunities presented by a bear stockmarket by averaging one's stock portfolio to a lower cost base.
Once this was addressed I thought surely, with his attention to details, LoBaron will also be addressing the proper uses of one's personal M1 money supply to best advantage in a deflationary asset market. Surely that is a subject which post Stresseman's tenure of the finance ministry in the Weimar period, every Teuton would be taught about in school. Particularly important to discuss the second issue because whilst averaging lower one's cost base is almost always a good idea in an inflationary market, it isn't necessarily so in a deflationary market. One very much needs to then factor in opportunity cost plus if one is European, sovereign risk.
Alas, "sigh", when opened, the thread merely dealt with the old rehashed topics.[>:] All well, nothing to add to JWE's succinct comments.
But LoBaron, one last plea, any chance of you getting this initially very promising thread back to the really useful matters I mentioned.[;)]
Alfred
PS: I will not be providing any free investment advice and the above is provided only as general advice not to be relied upon by individual investors. I recommend those so inclined to discuss their investment situation with their licensed financial advisors.
Alfred, I am very sorry that the thread title was misleading you to believe I was going to do an in deph analysis of the bear stockmarket and its loopholes.
I was aware of the danger, but posted anyway. Out of malice, or simple neglectence, thats hard to reconstruct after all that happened.
Still, in case you are not completely heartbroken and lost all interest in whats big and smells like, well, bear, I might tell you that what you dream of is in the works.
I don´t know whether it will get finished in my lifetime though.
Every time I´m 5th gear theres some new variable popping up out of nowhere. The latest findings indicated a high sensitivity of the bear stockmarket to the effects
of global warming. Let me explain: The icebear market directly dependent on the ammount of and average distance between polar icecaps, decreasing as well as distance
increasing as global average temperatures rise. Since the relation of the icebear market to the bearmarket is not clear as of yet and long time studies are awaited
to get estimates on the relation between C0² percentage and bear population, I beg you to have a bit of patience. The next averaging out will average out the bear market.
Ah, btw, I only googled what bear market actually means after typing the above, so in case you again are dissatisfied, please put it down to my incomplete grasp of the English language. [:D]
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:44 am
by LoBaron
ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy
I dunno. I looked at the top of the forum page and it reads "Matrix GAMES Forums". It's a realistic game, but a game nonetheless.
Me too. But this is a very complex topic, ilovestrategy. It could also be ConSim. Probably depending on what you ate at breakfast.
It seems that to decide what it is, is VERY important to our future and the future of WitP AE, as it will change something FUNDAMENTAL about the way we look at the map
of the Pacific. I don´t know what, but mdiehl wil explain for sure. [;)]
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 3:59 am
by Alfred
ORIGINAL: LoBaron
ORIGINAL: Alfred
LoBaron,
When I first saw the title of this thread, I was soooooooo excited.
Then when I read it, I was sooooooo disappointed.
Why the different reactions? My initial reaction was, great, at long last in stereotypical Teutonic efficiency someone is going to discuss on the forum what is really important; how one can take advantage of the opportunities presented by a bear stockmarket by averaging one's stock portfolio to a lower cost base.
Once this was addressed I thought surely, with his attention to details, LoBaron will also be addressing the proper uses of one's personal M1 money supply to best advantage in a deflationary asset market. Surely that is a subject which post Stresseman's tenure of the finance ministry in the Weimar period, every Teuton would be taught about in school. Particularly important to discuss the second issue because whilst averaging lower one's cost base is almost always a good idea in an inflationary market, it isn't necessarily so in a deflationary market. One very much needs to then factor in opportunity cost plus if one is European, sovereign risk.
Alas, "sigh", when opened, the thread merely dealt with the old rehashed topics.[>:] All well, nothing to add to JWE's succinct comments.
But LoBaron, one last plea, any chance of you getting this initially very promising thread back to the really useful matters I mentioned.[;)]
Alfred
PS: I will not be providing any free investment advice and the above is provided only as general advice not to be relied upon by individual investors. I recommend those so inclined to discuss their investment situation with their licensed financial advisors.
Alfred, I am very sorry that the thread title was misleading you to believe I was going to do an in deph analysis of the bear stockmarket and its loopholes.
I was aware of the danger, but posted anyway. Out of malice, or simple neglectence, thats hard to reconstruct after all that happened.
Still, in case you are not completely heartbroken and lost all interest in whats big and smells like, well, bear, I might tell you that what you dream of is in the works.
I don´t know whether it will get finished in my lifetime though.
Every time I´m 5th gear theres some new variable popping up out of nowhere. The latest findings indicated a high sensitivity of the bear stockmarket to the effects
of global warming. Let me explain: The icebear market directly dependent on the ammount of and average distance between polar icecaps, decreasing as well as distance
increasing as global average temperatures rise. Since the relation of the icebear market to the bearmarket is not clear as of yet and long time studies are awaited
to get estimates on the relation between C0² percentage and bear population, I beg you to have a bit of patience. The next averaging out will average out the bear market.
Ah, btw, I only googled what bear market actually means after typing the above, so in case you again are dissatisfied, please put it down to my incomplete grasp of the English language. [:D]
Au contraire, mon frere, my interest has been piqued by your response. From the undoubtedly linked variables you have pointed out, I'm heartened that you will tie all this into the Kondratieff long term cycle. Personnally, I've never felt that Keynesian theory has given due regard to the Kondratieff long term cycle.
Of course, if one is confident there is no sovereign risk, then one can expand from the restricted M1 money supply to the much more expansive M3 money supply. Once one starts down that path even M4 and M5 could enter into the debate. It would then be quite interesting to see how the consim school would react to the interaction of monetary theory and how AE plays out.
Not to forget the disappearance of Kondratieff in this involved story. I've always maintained that the 1938 and 1939 Soviet -Japanese border clashes were the direct result of the Manchukuo authorities sending a rescue party to find out exactly where Stalin had extended to Kondratieff a long term Siberian
dacha.
Keep up the research, LoBaron. I can see a Nobel Economics prize awaits you 20 years down the track. Tie in the Co2 element, and you might also get a Nobel Science prize too.
Alfred
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:11 am
by RHoenig
ORIGINAL: LoBaron
ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy
I dunno. I looked at the top of the forum page and it reads "Matrix GAMES Forums". It's a realistic game, but a game nonetheless.
Me too. But this is a very complex topic, ilovestrategy. It could also be ConSim. Probably depending on what you ate at breakfast.
It seems that to decide what it is, is VERY important to our future and the future of WitP AE, as it will change something FUNDAMENTAL about the way we look at the map
of the Pacific. I don´t know what, but mdiehl wil explain for sure. [;)]
I read through the threat and I have to say: What the hell are you arguing about?
IMO, a wargame is a cosim and a cosim is a wargame - period!
Sure, a "true cosim" might put more emphasis on "historical accuracy" and a "true game" might put more emphasis on game-balance, but in the end, they are both games/cosims nontheless.
I seem to remember that the japanese *played through* their midway plan (somewhat/highly stacked in their favor), I also seem to remember that the naval academies *play through* various scenarios.
Wargame, Cosim - where´s the bloody difference?
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 6:49 am
by LoBaron
This, RHoenig, is the bloody question. You got straight to the point. [:)]
The answer may be 42.
That said, most of us are just having fun in here...
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:25 am
by JeffroK
ORIGINAL: LoBaron
This, RHoenig, is the bloody question. You got straight to the point. [:)]
The answer may be 42.
That said, most of us are just having fun in here...
Problem is the question was "What is 6 times 8??"
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 7:26 am
by LoBaron
ORIGINAL: JeffK
ORIGINAL: LoBaron
This, RHoenig, is the bloody question. You got straight to the point. [:)]
The answer may be 42.
That said, most of us are just having fun in here...
Problem is the question was "What is 6 times 8??"
[:D]
I note you are no follower of DNA.
RE: The art of "averaging out"
Posted: Sat Aug 27, 2011 12:49 pm
by mdiehl
You left out The Eagle and the Sun!
In the immortal words of Gimli the dwarf: "It was deliberate."