Matrix Games Forums

The real problem is a lot of these russian units are not set up in the correct spot. I have no doubt that the developers spent massive amounts of resources to accurately place them where they should be on June 22; trouble is, that is not where they were when they made contact with the Germans.

Just out of curiosity, why do you think it was impossible? ..

ORIGINAL: Schmart
The Russian player can't do anything to prevent a Lvov pocket? No sh*t! Show me an IGOUGO game where the second player can prevent anything that happens on T1...

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

The problem with free setups and other more "realistic" ways to prevent the Germans from forming a big pocket, is that they aren't that realistic politically. The problem is that Stalin expected a forward, aggressive defense.

If I had a free Soviet set-up, I would NOT set my guys up offensively, but very defensively. Given enough freedom, I would leave the bare minimum along the border, and set everyone up to make a stand along the old Stalin line, or further back. Do you think Comrade Stalin would have been OK with that strategy?

Having played Soviets myself, I personally don't have a problem with the Lvov pocket. It's the last freebie the Germans get. Chalk it up to "Hold Fast' order.

ORIGINAL: gradenko_2000

I don't see the point in holding off your purchase of this great game on the basis of a single opening move that might not even mean all the much in the long-term outcome of a match. It would be like not buying War in the Pacific just because the Japanese can redirect the Kido Butai to Manila instead of Pearl Harbor.

ORIGINAL: sveint

What is really needed is a scenario with a free setup turn for each side.

ORIGINAL: LiquidSky

Perhaps having an initial setup turn would be a good idea. Make it blind, and allow the Germans certain historical limits on placement of units, and make the Russians set up in the hexes they start in, or any hex closer to the front line. This would represent the unknown reaction of the Russian divisions, and would add some excitement to the start of the game.

ORIGINAL: Pelton
Stop the unending cring every time a German player does something smart and that the Russian players are just plain to stupid to counter.

Whenever a German player makes a mistake and the Russian player makes him pay its called great game play.
Whenever a Russian player makes a mistake and the German player makes him pay its called exploiting and the rules must be changed to help the russian play for his poor tactics.

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Why the never ending baby sitting for the Russians?

Every time a German player does something good it gets hit with the nerf bat?
There is 100% nothing unhistorical about the Lvov move.

Just play the dam AI if you want to fight a ignorant German, lol.

Stop the unending cring every time a German player does something smart and that the Russian players are just plain to stupid to counter.

Whats not historicail is the way way way over rated russian rail system, commander ratings, the Hill Billy tactics of running east the first 6 turns.
Fix that stupid crap that 100% nonhistorical before thinking about nerfing something that 'could" have been easly historical.

Lol, get off the bandwagon of nerfing the German side to junk over things that are clearly withen the realm of a smart German player.

Try thinking instead of just cring a river all the time.

Also by the game, before bitching about it.

Pelton

ORIGINAL: Pelton

Whenever a German player makes a mistake and the Russian player makes him pay its called great game play.
Whenever a Russian player makes a mistake and the German player makes him pay its called exploiting and the rules must be changed to help the russian play for his poor tactics.

One less person to possibly add to my friends list [8D]

Dam list is getting big [X(]

Pelton

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

While the first turn Lvov mega-pocket looks spectacular, the new air supply rules could mean it is of less long term value to the Axis.

ORIGINAL: Empire101

ORIGINAL: sveint

What is really needed is a scenario with a free setup turn for each side.

Double +1 [:)]

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

While the first turn Lvov mega-pocket looks spectacular, the new air supply rules could mean it is of less long term value to the Axis. My approach to pockets has been to be sure I could eliminate them in one turn so as not to delay the eastward movement of the infantry, and if the pocket is not eliminated, use the minimum of force to clean it up. The Lvov "mega-pocket" can take 3-4 turns to clear up and ties down 6th and 17th armies, now, if the Soviets get air supply in there, this could take even longer. How many AARs have we seen where the Axis players who have used the Lvov gambit have gone on to achieve better than historical results across the whole front before the blizzard hits?

Personally I have never used it, and in the 2 published AARs, one vs. the AI and one PBEM against Trey, I formed 2 separate pockets in the south, one small one around Lvov on turn 1 and a much larger one on turn 4-5 in front of Zhitomir (sp) which probably did as much damage as the "mega-pocket" gambit, but crucially allowed the infantry to get further east to support an earlier capture of Kiev. In both cases, I did achieve better than historical results before the blizzard hit, and this was without HQ Buildup, until it became available about T16 of my game the Trey, and helped me get Rostov and Moscow.

As noted elsewhere, the Axis has to significantly weaken AGC to pull off the Lvov Gambit, and this too will have medium to longer term consequences.

The strategy is not an exploit, it is a choice, and like every choice it has it's consequences.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

ORIGINAL: BigAnorak

While the first turn Lvov mega-pocket looks spectacular, the new air supply rules could mean it is of less long term value to the Axis.

This relies entirely on the Luftwaffe ignoring the place. If the Axis player knows his business, the place will be crawling with CAP and turn air resupply efforts into a turkey shoot.

That being said, I've seen a number of AAR where indeed the Soviet is getting supplies through. Mostly because this is new, I expect that Axis players will quickly adjust and shut down this airhead possibility.

I myself have managed to a bit of this in the Bialystock salient. Not sure what happened to the Luftwaffe, but it didn't intercept.

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Asdicus, for whatever it is worth, I agree with you and would like to see this changed. My own view is that at a minimum Southwest Front ought not be subject to the same surprise attack turns rules that apply to the rest of the Red Army. (This would give them full movement.)

But even that may not be enough to properly fix this. There's been some talk off and on about redoing the whole surprise turn.