Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Was it the Manila strike that was the step to far ??

Yes, the fact that it occured along with a Pearl strike instead of in lieu of a Pearl strike.

That was also the most devastating Pearl strike I have ever seen. Which in itself isn't a bad thing. I only lost 2 BBs but the lost DDs and heavily damaged CLs hurt worse than losing BBs. I could have lived with it, but losing additional DDs and subs at Manila put it over the top for me at least.

I reran it last night with surprise off, but with a historical first turn and it seems that historical first turn overrides surprise off because it started with the turn resolution and never offered me a chance to give orders on turn one. I ran it again with surprise off and historical first turn off and it finally allowed me to give orders to units, but I disliked starting that way beacuse it was tough to resist the temptation to give orders to everyone and not just the ships in Manila.

I put the all my airforces on alert and gave orders to TFs at sea. I didn't create any new TFs. SS Plunger put a fish into the Soryu and I guess the CAP at Pearl dissuaded the KB from ever attacking. So that exercise was a bust. [:D]

It can be worse (surprise and historical first turn):

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 51
A6M2-N Rufe x 2
B5N2 Kate x 168
D3A1 Val x 160



Allied aircraft
no flights

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 damaged
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed by flak
B5N2 Kate: 2 damaged
D3A1 Val: 5 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
PBY-5 Catalina: 148 damaged
PBY-5 Catalina: 15 destroyed on ground
P-40B Warhawk: 57 damaged
P-40B Warhawk: 14 destroyed on ground
B-18A Bolo: 34 damaged
B-18A Bolo: 6 destroyed on ground
B-17E Fortress: 25 damaged
B-17D Fortress: 35 damaged
B-17D Fortress: 3 destroyed on ground
A-20A Havoc: 8 damaged
A-20A Havoc: 6 destroyed on ground
SBD-1 Dauntless: 29 damaged
SBD-1 Dauntless: 6 destroyed on ground
P-36A Mohawk: 31 damaged
P-36A Mohawk: 4 destroyed on ground
F4F-3 Wildcat: 6 damaged
F4F-3 Wildcat: 3 destroyed on ground
O-47A: 9 damaged
O-47A: 3 destroyed on ground
C-33: 2 damaged
C-33: 1 destroyed on ground
R3D-2: 1 destroyed on ground
OS2U-3 Kingfisher: 10 destroyed

Allied Ships
BB West Virginia, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 6, and is sunk
BB Nevada, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 4, and is sunk
BB California, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
BB Tennessee, Bomb hits 3, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
BB Pennsylvania, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 6, and is sunk
BB Arizona, Bomb hits 8, Torpedo hits 6, and is sunk
BB Oklahoma, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
AR Vestal, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Helena, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
BB Maryland, Bomb hits 5, Torpedo hits 5, and is sunk
DM Breese, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
SS Tautog, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
CA New Orleans, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
CL St. Louis, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
DD Dewey, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DM Preble, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Phelps, Torpedo hits 2, and is sunk
CL Honolulu, Bomb hits 4, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
DD Henley, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
DM Ramsay, Bomb hits 2, on fire
DM Pruitt, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Tucker, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Detroit, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
AV Wright, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
PT-20, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AV Tangier, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CL Raleigh, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
SS Narwhal, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
DD Hull, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
CL Phoenix, Bomb hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, on fire
DD Selfridge, Bomb hits 1
DD Helm, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
AO Ramapo, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Chew, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
AD Rigel, Torpedo hits 1, heavy damage
AK Alchiba, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CA San Francisco, Bomb hits 1
DD Conyngham, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DD Patterson, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
CM Oglala, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
PT-23, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
DM Gamble, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DMS Wasmuth, Bomb hits 1, on fire
DD Reid, Bomb hits 1, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Bagley, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Worden, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
DD Schley, Torpedo hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
DM Tracy, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk


Allied ground losses:
Guns lost 1 (1 destroyed, 0 disabled)


Repair Shipyard hits 9
Airbase hits 55
Airbase supply hits 2
Runway hits 102

Manila:
Allied aircraft losses
P-40E Warhawk: 65 damaged
P-40E Warhawk: 3 destroyed on ground
PBY-4 Catalina: 36 damaged
PBY-4 Catalina: 2 destroyed on ground
SOC-1 Seagull: 1 damaged
SOC-1 Seagull: 3 destroyed on ground

Allied Ships
AS Canopus, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Skipjack, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
SS Sargo, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
SS Stingray, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
PG Isabel, Bomb hits 1, on fire, heavy damage
SS Porpoise, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
xAKL Compagnia Filipinas, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
SS Pickerel, Bomb hits 1
SS Saury, Bomb hits 2, and is sunk
SS Salmon, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
SS Spearfish, Bomb hits 1
PT-35, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
AO Trinity, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Permit, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
SS Sturgeon, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SS Pike, Bomb hits 1
DD Peary, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Tarpon, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
DD Pillsbury, Bomb hits 1, on fire

Allied Ships
xAK Capillo, Bomb hits 1, on fire
PG Tulsa, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS S-41, Bomb hits 1
AM Lark, Bomb hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
AM Finch, Bomb hits 1, on fire
SS Salmon, Bomb hits 1, and is sunk
SS Sailfish, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
AV Langley, Bomb hits 2, on fire
SS Shark, Bomb hits 1
SS Porpoise, Bomb hits 1, heavy damage
xAK Ethel Edwards, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAP Rochambeau, Bomb hits 1, on fire
xAKL Bisayas, Bomb hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage

It hurts [:)]

I'll need to play some more turns forward to get a better feeling about what is left then and whats possible to accomplish, but i see where HansBolter is coming from. I'll do that this weekend and will give another comment then.

yes, my example above was with surprise and historical first turn.

as for Andy's attempt at shock and awe he succeeded brilliantly.

It may just be me who feels that both Pearl and Manila strikes on the first turn is over the top. Others may well feel differently.

Maybe it would be good for me to just suck it up and play on. I do still tend to get impatient about playing passively for the first six months and start fighting back too early and end up trashing the AI too early in just about every game. So maybe starting that much further in the hole will force me to play more passivley early on.

I don't know, maybe its a change for the good that I just need to get over the shock and awe of and learn to embrace.

p.s. and yea, your first turn was way worse than mine

I always play quite passive for about 7-12 months to let the AI do as much as possible. Now i may have no other choise, because there isn't really anything left to fight back. [:D]

I will take a look I have a cunning plan to adjust v6 will be out tonight with an amendment (I agree on reflection I may have went a little far albeit this is Ironman....)

p.s. you may not like my amendment any more but at least I listen :)

<wonders what he can do with the KB2 TF created for the Manila strike.....there must be somewhere else on the map it can hit......>

hi

i am thinking of giving this a go when v6 comes out but have a couple of questions:

1) i assume this is played on the standard map, also the download is just .dat files does it use standard ai? (Basically what needs doing to install this?)

2) if, for example, v7 comes out further down the line is it likely to be save game compatible?

3) i have seen it mentioned to shift up the difficulty to hard for a few days each month - what does this actually do in game? Does it just give japanese extra supplies?

4) do the allies get anything extra? (do you have a website with more info?)

many thanks

sanderz

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

I will take a look I have a cunning plan to adjust v6 will be out tonight with an amendment (I agree on reflection I may have went a little far albeit this is Ironman....)

p.s. you may not like my amendment any more but at least I listen :)

<wonders what he can do with the KB2 TF created for the Manila strike.....there must be somewhere else on the map it can hit......>

[:D][:D][:D]

<hears maniacal laughter in the back room> [X(]

[&o][&o][&o]

bump to v6

Wanted to finally stop by and say thanks for all your work on this Andy.&nbsp; Even though I usually end up cursing you when I run into one of your "surprises" your Ironman scenario has kept me playing this game after all these years.&nbsp; Giving the Japanese all these new toys and aggressive moves makes the first year of the war so much more fun.&nbsp;

standard map download and paste into scen file Ai files also attached same thing just download and paste into scen file

2) unlikely as I would need to get scen stamped to make it happen

3) helps the Ai with supplies and aircraft replacement

4) no you need to make do and be a lot more carefull with your assets

ORIGINAL: sanderz

hi

i am thinking of giving this a go when v6 comes out but have a couple of questions:

1) i assume this is played on the standard map, also the download is just .dat files does it use standard ai? (Basically what needs doing to install this?)

2) if, for example, v7 comes out further down the line is it likely to be save game compatible?

3) i have seen it mentioned to shift up the difficulty to hard for a few days each month - what does this actually do in game? Does it just give japanese extra supplies?

4) do the allies get anything extra? (do you have a website with more info?)

many thanks

sanderz

ORIGINAL: Peever

Wanted to finally stop by and say thanks for all your work on this Andy.  Even though I usually end up cursing you when I run into one of your "surprises" your Ironman scenario has kept me playing this game after all these years.  Giving the Japanese all these new toys and aggressive moves makes the first year of the war so much more fun. 

[:D][:D]

I'm a little worried I'll have to change my underwear after Turn 1.

Does it affect the AI if I allow myself to make moves on Dec 7?

Will the AI make the same opening moves with: Historical First Turn = OFF, Dec 7 Suprise = ON

I like to move at Sea Task Forces (i.e. Sir Robin Force Z) and do a bunch of logistical stuff at distant bases to make the next turn go faster.

ORIGINAL: Keifer

I'm a little worried I'll have to change my underwear after Turn 1.

Does it affect the AI if I allow myself to make moves on Dec 7?

Will the AI make the same opening moves with: Historical First Turn = OFF, Dec 7 Suprise = ON

I like to move at Sea Task Forces (i.e. Sir Robin Force Z) and do a bunch of logistical stuff at distant bases to make the next turn go faster.

I tried v5 with Historical First Turn off and Surprise off and it still played the same.

Hans: Have you ever tried AI vs. AI for the first few months? You can run the game overnight or when you are at work and then hit F9 (or another nearby "F" key) to stop the game. Then you can run it with Japanese AI only. This way you miss the "boring" part in the early months and no restraint will be necessary on your part.

Andy: Thanks for your continuous updates. I may give v6 a whirl. However, is there any chance of getting some of the Babes elements into this, such as their shipborne AA or their base forces (at least on the Allied side)? I'd like to give that a shot sometime.

BTW--I've counted at least 19 IJN CVs sunk or otherwise detected by July 1944 in v3. A pretty good-sized force--not the usual three CVs--showed up in the Marianas and did a lot of damage to my fleet. I ran into some of the Greyjoy-Rader issues, but of course that worked both ways and the IJN got shellacked. I'm still waiting for the Tirpitz to show up, though.

Cheers,
CC

ORIGINAL: Commander Cody

Hans: Have you ever tried AI vs. AI for the first few months? You can run the game overnight or when you are at work and then hit F9 (or another nearby "F" key) to stop the game. Then you can run it with Japanese AI only. This way you miss the "boring" part in the early months and no restraint will be necessary on your part.

Andy: Thanks for your continuous updates. I may give v6 a whirl. However, is there any chance of getting some of the Babes elements into this, such as their shipborne AA or their base forces (at least on the Allied side)? I'd like to give that a shot sometime.

BTW--I've counted at least 19 IJN CVs sunk or otherwise detected by July 1944 in v3. A pretty good-sized force--not the usual three CVs--showed up in the Marianas and did a lot of damage to my fleet. I ran into some of the Greyjoy-Rader issues, but of course that worked both ways and the IJN got shellacked. I'm still waiting for the Tirpitz to show up, though.

Cheers,
CC

Never tried it that way. I know Bullwinkle recommended it many times. I have great trepidation about allowing the AI to play both sides. I have visions of such a totally out of whack game that it scares me to death. I see the things the AI does with the other side. I can't bring myself to allow it control of my side.

Got version 6 downloaded last night but I deferred to the cat when she chose the computer chair to curl up in while I was making dinner. So maybe I'll get a chance to see a v6 first turn tonight.

Getting Babes in is tough because its a different design philosophy that while I respect it and the folks that did it doesnt fit with my play style and as the author of the scenario I am not going to create a scenario that doesnt really cater to my own preferences. (selfish I know)

e.g. splitting down base forces is micromanagement hell to me but is a fundamental part of the babes philosophy

Other data based changes always happy to take if its more accurate.

So in general Babes device level changes or ship class changes I would happily take if I can find the time. LCU's unlikley for design philosophy reasons

Please can anyone to explain me what is the so often propose "brave Sir Robin" strategie or tactics?
Thanks in advance.
marioa

Hans: Right, I originally got the idea from Bullwinkle. Forgot to give him the hat tip. Well, for me it usually takes about three AI vs. AI runs before I get an appealing situation to take over ("appealing" meaning quite challenging yet not hopeless). Also, I'll do a few saves and go back to a previous one if something bad happens (like losing three CVs near Saipan in May '42).

Andy: Understood on your motivations. I hear DaBades handles the AA on ships pretty realistically, so that might be a great thing to port over. Also, I like their idea of even more restricted stacking and the extended map, but understand that might be a lot of trouble to port to Ironman.

Marioa: That refers to a character in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" who "bravely runs away." What it means is you retreat your assets as fast as you can before they get eaten up by the Japanese empire. Then you will have more forces on hand when the time to counterattack arrives.

Cheers,
CC

Commander Cody thanks very much for your help.
marioa

Just ran Dec 7. Didn't seem too bad.

Andy,

I didn't notice a replacement for the Manila Strike.