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RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 9:25 pm
by Dr Deo
ORIGINAL: Orm
Declare war, make peace and then declare war again with the same country all within a couple of months time is unheard of to me. I feel it is totally unrealistic.
Unheard of? Well, have you heard of a certain Charles X Gustav of Sweden and what happened 1658?
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Fri Nov 11, 2011 11:23 pm
by Extraneous
ORIGINAL: Red Prince
ORIGINAL: Extraneous
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
The question of more than one claim on Bessarabia, and more than one DoW on Rumania in the case where a peace is enforced; was referred to Harry Rowland, the game's designer.
Harry is working on RAW8 and an NDA prohibits me from posting an exact quote of the changes that will be made.
However if these changes remain in for publication (which is highly likely) they will make it clear in the next issue of the rules that Russia may perform these actions only once per game. This of course renders moot any discussion of whether US Entry is affected more than once by a Russian claim being denied.
I assume that you mean moot because of your NDA. [:)] Gratz on your being allowed to test RAW8. [:)]
Actually, I took "moot" to mean that if the rules end up saying Russia can only do it once, then there is no possibility of a 2nd claim/roll.
I took it to mean because of his NDA he is unable to discuss if USE is affected by more than one USSR DoW against the same minor.
Either way it will be explained in RAW8.
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 4:18 am
by paulderynck
My intended meaning is as Red Prince deduced.
Actually the question of whether repeat identical DoWs should cause repeat US entry is the next subject I'll be introducing in the RAW8 discussions. There is still some worthy clarification due in regards to the statement in RAW about Entry Actions 20, 31 & 32 versus what Footnote 1 of the chart says. Of course, if only those cause repeat US entry then you have to wonder about any repeat DoW, which in turn might mean revamping the chart and the footnotes.
If anything comes of it, I'll keep you posted.
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 6:57 am
by Orm
ORIGINAL: Dr Deo
ORIGINAL: Orm
Declare war, make peace and then declare war again with the same country all within a couple of months time is unheard of to me. I feel it is totally unrealistic.
Unheard of? Well, have you heard of a certain Charles X Gustav of Sweden and what happened 1658?
Yes, I have heard of what happened 1658. And I do not think it is the same thing.
But maybe I should have formulated myself a bit differently since I actually thought about this event when I objected. I should have written days or maybe weeks. Or maybe I shouldn't have written it at all because I did not want to argue about this since I was sure that there were going to be a clarification on this subject.
If USSR had fought a war with Rumania and agreed to peace terms and then declared war a short while lalter I doubt that USSR could have recieved any help from the Western Allies. The political cost for Charles X Gustav of Sweden 1658 was heavy and Sweden had to agree to worse peace terms the second time around so no gain for this treacherous DOW.
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 10:51 am
by Dr Deo
ORIGINAL: Orm
If USSR had fought a war with Rumania and agreed to peace terms and then declared war a short while lalter I doubt that USSR could have recieved any help from the Western Allies. The political cost for Charles X Gustav of Sweden 1658 was heavy and Sweden had to agree to worse peace terms the second time around so no gain for this treacherous DOW.
Yes, but at the time of the Bessarabian claim, Stalin wasn't expecting any help from the WA, since SU had a pact with Germany, so why would he take that into consideration?
There are of course other reasons why he wouldn't want to risk a second attack, like e.g. incompetent officers (in the example of the game in question) or German interests in the region.
Personally, I think the claim on Bessarabia should only be allowed once, but whether a second DOW should be allowed? Maybe. As long as a second DOW would generate significant US entry effect, I don't think it's totally unrealistic.
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Sat Nov 12, 2011 1:36 pm
by Red Prince
ORIGINAL: Dr Deo
ORIGINAL: Orm
If USSR had fought a war with Rumania and agreed to peace terms and then declared war a short while lalter I doubt that USSR could have recieved any help from the Western Allies. The political cost for Charles X Gustav of Sweden 1658 was heavy and Sweden had to agree to worse peace terms the second time around so no gain for this treacherous DOW.
Yes, but at the time of the Bessarabian claim, Stalin wasn't expecting any help from the WA, since SU had a pact with Germany, so why would he take that into consideration?
There are of course other reasons why he wouldn't want to risk a second attack, like e.g. incompetent officers (in the example of the game in question) or German interests in the region.
Personally, I think the claim on Bessarabia should only be allowed once, but whether a second DOW should be allowed? Maybe. As long as a second DOW would generate significant US entry effect, I don't think it's totally unrealistic.
I'm not so sure the last point is valid. I'm also not sure it is not valid.
Do you remember the Chechnya invasions that were on and off for many months/years? And the 8+ years the Soviets spent in Afghanistan, sometimes withdrawing and returning? How about the constant back and forth battles between Israel and Palestine about 10 years ago when each side kept going back on its promises?
I think in most of these cases, only the initial confrontation produced a significant backlash in the US. Exasperation and disgust were the emotions that followed the repeat episodes. I don't see that as the same level of anger/tension that is represented by the US Entry system. But that's just my opinion.
-Aaron
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:06 am
by paulderynck
It looks like RAW8 will have a US Entry roll for all DoWs even if one identically re-occurs.
I don't think this can be interpreted as a clarification of RAW7 though. Presently the chart is clear that FREX a repeat USSR DoW on Japan would not generate a second roll. As stated previously, there is an argument for either interpretation concerning Actions 20, 31 & 32. So flip a coin.
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 1:42 pm
by Red Prince
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It looks like RAW8 will have a US Entry roll for all DoWs even if one identically re-occurs.
I don't think this can be interpreted as a clarification of RAW7 though. Presently the chart is clear that FREX a repeat USSR DoW on Japan would not generate a second roll. As stated previously, there is an argument for either interpretation concerning Actions 20, 31 & 32. So flip a coin.
But, Paul, what if the coin lands on its
edge ???
[;)]
-----
Edit: Just to be sure: I am teasing about that . . .
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:07 pm
by Orm
ORIGINAL: Red Prince
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It looks like RAW8 will have a US Entry roll for all DoWs even if one identically re-occurs.
I don't think this can be interpreted as a clarification of RAW7 though. Presently the chart is clear that FREX a repeat USSR DoW on Japan would not generate a second roll. As stated previously, there is an argument for either interpretation concerning Actions 20, 31 & 32. So flip a coin.
But, Paul, what if the coin lands on its
edge ???
[;)]
-----
Edit: Just to be sure: I am teasing about that . . .
No trouble at all. I have the perfect coin we can use for this toss. [:)] Baring divine intervention it will give me the result I prefer. [;)]
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:18 pm
by Red Prince
ORIGINAL: Orm
ORIGINAL: Red Prince
ORIGINAL: paulderynck
It looks like RAW8 will have a US Entry roll for all DoWs even if one identically re-occurs.
I don't think this can be interpreted as a clarification of RAW7 though. Presently the chart is clear that FREX a repeat USSR DoW on Japan would not generate a second roll. As stated previously, there is an argument for either interpretation concerning Actions 20, 31 & 32. So flip a coin.
But, Paul, what if the coin lands on its
edge ???
[;)]
-----
Edit: Just to be sure: I am teasing about that . . .
No trouble at all. I have the perfect coin we can use for this toss. [:)] Baring divine intervention it will give me the result I prefer. [;)]
Ahhh. So
that's how you nearly won the Barbarossa AAR !!! [;)]
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:21 pm
by Orm
ORIGINAL: Red Prince
ORIGINAL: Orm
ORIGINAL: Red Prince
But, Paul, what if the coin lands on its edge ???
[;)]
-----
Edit: Just to be sure: I am teasing about that . . .
No trouble at all. I have the perfect coin we can use for this toss. [:)] Baring divine intervention it will give me the result I prefer. [;)]
Ahhh. So
that's how you nearly won the Barbarossa AAR !!! [;)]
No. That game was not decided by a coin toss. I lost that game due to daring successful attacks by a competent German player.
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 2:27 pm
by Extraneous
AUSTRALIAN DESIGN GROUPWiF FE Rule Clarification Summary© 2009, Australian Design Group
Number Q9.2-2
Rule Reference 9.2
Question (411) Are alignment and DOW done simultaneously or sequentially?
Example I: Does the CW know the results of the US DOW attempt(s) before making his decisions?
Example II: Can Japan DOW the CW in the same impulse Germany declares war on the Netherlands and then invade NEI and the CW territories, or does Japan have to wait until the impulse after Germany DOWs the Netherlands?
Harry Rowland's Answer (411)
All DOWs are announced sequentially, and you DO get to know whether the US was successful in declaring war on an Axis major power immediately she announces it, but you DON'T get to know the US entry effect nor who aligns the minor until AFTER all DOWs are announced.
You must declare war on all major powers first, and then all minor countries. However within these restrictions you can declare war in any order you like. Thus you can wait till other major powers on your side have declared war before you do. After all declarations of war you roll for the US entry effect and then work out alignment of minor countries.
Example I: Yes, the CW can wait until we know whether the US DoW is successful or not before they declare war. Date 19/07/2007
Example II: Yes she may DOW in the same impulse, and good play would dictate the Allied player consider the possibility of aligning the Netherlands to a different active Allied major power than the CW if this happens. Date 12/05/2008
RAW7aug04 Rule Quote (411)
9.2: All major powers on this side announce which major powers on the other side they are declaring war on this impulse. They then all announce which neutral minor countries they are declaring war on this impulse. (…)
Each declaration of war on a major power or neutral minor country could trigger a US entry effect (see 13.3.3), which are rolled for after all declarations of war.
Answer Date 12/05/2008
Perhaps this will help.
RE: Rumania and Bessarabia
Posted: Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:56 pm
by Centuur
I really like the sentence: "good play would dictate the Allied player consider the possibility of aligning the Netherlands to a different active Allied major power than the CW if this happens." [:D]