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Of course I know, History is my drag!
No matter what, surrender wasn't an option...

Let me remind you the Texans in Alamo against the WHOLE Mexican army or... the 300 Spartans against the MILLIONS of Persians!
They... DIDN'T surrender, because it was a "dead end", no matter the choice...
For example, I wouldn't EVER let myself drived on a wall against a firing squad; I would try to escape or to take some with me. That's my point, about Paulus' surrender.

ORIGINAL: andrewmazlim

Of course I know, History is my drag!
No matter what, surrender wasn't an option...

Let me remind you the Texans in Alamo against the WHOLE Mexican army or... the 300 Spartans against the MILLIONS of Persians!
They... DIDN'T surrender, because it was a "dead end", no matter the choice...
For example, I wouldn't EVER let myself drived on a wall against a firing squad; I would try to escape or to take some with me. That's my point, about Paulus' surrender.

You may say that (and even believe it), but until you are actually in such a position you can't know it. And the only people who really have the right to criticize von Paulus and others who have surrendered are those who have been in his position and not surrendered.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but it does bunch my shorts when people say they would do all these brave things in a given situation when they can't possibly know how they would act.

Cheers


Bruce

ORIGINAL: brucesim2003
You may say that (and even believe it), but until you are actually in such a position you can't know it. And the only people who really have the right to criticize von Paulus and others who have surrendered are those who have been in his position and not surrendered.

That's precisely what I think. I've given a considerable amount time to thinking about von Paulus ordeals. And I can only say that between duty, reality and his troops conditions there was not much else to do. We can only sightly imagine what he went through in those moments.

@andrewmazlim
Those famous last stands, usually end up in achieving little, in terms of military accomplishments. But even to be able to do such a bravado, you need to have your troops ready to do that, physically and mentally.
I sincerely doubt, that the Germans troops in Stalingrad, at the surrender time, could fulfil those conditions.

ORIGINAL: VPaulus

ORIGINAL: brucesim2003
You may say that (and even believe it), but until you are actually in such a position you can't know it. And the only people who really have the right to criticize von Paulus and others who have surrendered are those who have been in his position and not surrendered.

That's precisely what I think. I've given a considerable amount time to thinking about von Paulus ordeals. And I can only say that between duty, reality and his troops conditions there was not much else to do. We can only sightly imagine what he went through in those moments.

@andrewmazlim
Those famous last stands, usually end up in achieving little, in terms of military accomplishments. But even to be able to do such a bravado, you need to have your troops ready to do that, physically and mentally.
I sincerely doubt, that the Germans troops in Stalingrad, at the surrender time, could fulfil those conditions.

I don't renember which movie it was about Stalingrad, but there was interesting scene. A group of German soldiers scavenging the area saw how a Ju-57 got shot down. They went to crash site hoping for food only to find boxes full with iron cross 2nd class.

ORIGINAL: Dragoon
I don't renember which movie it was about Stalingrad, but there was interesting scene. A group of German soldiers scavenging the area saw how a Ju-57 got shot down. They went to crash site hoping for food only to find boxes full with iron cross 2nd class.

I'm not sure if it was "Stalingrad" by Joseph Vilsmaier or in the Sam Peckinpah's great "Cross of Iron" movie, although the last is not about Stalingrad. I think it's one of these.

Βut... talking about History is ALWAYS an hypothetical matter, since we... can't be there, can we?
With YOUR way of thinking, NO HISTORIC professor would ever critic a historic moment!

Of course I never... been in a situation like... against a firing squad or in von Paulus' boots, but I know myself, am I?
Personally, I believe, GIVING YOURSELF fightless to someone else's hands, it's stupid. I wouldn't, ever. Since you're SOLDIER, you need to "force" yourself to think that you're ALREADY dead!

(There is a superb phrase, in an episode of "Band of Brothers" - the Buston's episode... There was a scared para and asked Lieutenant Spears "how can't I remain calm and I'm scared all the time?". And Lieutenant Spears replied him "it's because you think there is still hope to SURVIVE! You don't understand, you're already dead!... So, accept it, embrace it and do your job without mercy, remorse, hate!"...)

That's my policy too. If I have NO choice to defend myself and there are two choices - dead or POW - I would surelly choose to die fighting! What's the point to LET YOURSELF in the hand of your enemy and PREY to God, to be furtune and survive? YOU NEED to take your fate to your hands; and if there is no hope, so be it and TAKE with you AS MANY you can!

That's my opinion; I'm respecting yours.

Ok Andrew.
I understand those kind of decisions on the individual base.
But what about when you've men under your command? Do you evaluate the situations in the same manner?
Further, I don't remember any last stand with a large army. I think that's only possible with relatively small amount of troops.
But let us not think about a last stand. Let us think in a coordinated attack.
Do you think that they could do it? Did they have the will? The moral? What about the physical conditions? A lot of them were ill. Temperatures below zero. No food. No much ammo available.
I just can't believe that you can order an attack under those conditions, knowing that most of the troops hardly will follow that order.

Of course, we are having a civilized debate, so I too respect every opinion. I'm afraid that this thread is already too much off-topic.