Matrix Games Forums

http://www.planetarmor.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4172


A long thread with some excellent modelling of an Elephant. I am trying to find details that explains the claims about shooting 'auxiliary fuel tanks'. Supposedly not needing a penetration.

The detail on this model is extraordinary. Here the armored combat area is flipped up. This could be unbolted IRL and lifted.

I ripped this off from Ron Klages AHF:
 
Losses for sPJA 654 are:

501 mine damage
502 mine damage
514 broken off tracks and destroyed road wheel by mines
522 broken off tracks and destroyed road wheels
523 broken off tracks and destroyed road wheels
524 mine damage
531 destroyed by bomb from PE-2
601 broken off tracks on right side from shell hits
602 76mm gun hits
614
623
624 Fgst. Nr. 150090 tracks are destroyed by mines
634
701 hits by 203mm shells
711
712 hit by shell
713 hits by shells
723 hits by shells
724 Fgst. Nr. 150061 hits by shells
731
732 hit by shell and set afire by KS bottle
733
734 broken off tracks
II 01 set afire by KS bottle
II 02 broken tracks right side and destroyed road wheels by mine
II 03 hits by shells and set afire by KS bottle

http://worldwartwozone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/13704-sdkfz-184-panzerjager-tiger-p-ferdinand-elefant/
 
Excellent website with pics of Ferdinand/Elephant.   The pics show the motor-generator assembly being removed.  Also, the traction motors are shown side by side installed in the AFV with the floor boards up.  They are huge and each has about 450 KW of energy going through it.  The back of the AFV would get awful hot and they would most likely want to keep that rear door open as much as possible.
 

The petrol-engine/generator/electrical-motor drive scheme takes up an awful lot of internal space in these vehicles. Since the lower side armor (behind the bogies and tracks) is only 60mm thick and mostly vertical, there is a good chance of mobility kills or better by targeting this area. It is not that big an area, like the the Tiger I (which also had 60mm lower side armor), but given a short range and opportunity, a penetration could be made by a T34.

Elephant with forward mounted gun

This Soviet document seems to point out the internals of the Ferdinand. Note that the fuel tank is on the right hand side of the vehicle. I don't quite buy into the 'fuel-tank-blowing-up-without-penetration' claim. A full fuel tank would certainly not blow up without penetration. In fact, both diesel and gasoline fuel tanks are safer when full.

Come join the hunt for the Elephant and see how it goes.

Can we find one? Can we kill one?

Who knows but you can help track and kill them. You give the command orders and I'll take care of the tactical disposition.

tm.asp?m=3009751

Good Hunting.

MR

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
I don't quite buy into the 'fuel-tank-blowing-up-without-penetration' claim. A full fuel tank would certainly not blow up without penetration. In fact, both diesel and gasoline fuel tanks are safer when full.

Also, looking in from the round hatch at the back there doesn't seem to be a view of of the side fuel tanks. Maybe some miscellaneous drums or can or some other object was taken as a fuel tank.

Yes, I saw that in some interior pics.  The whole story should be investigated through the source that Forty used (if he had one).
 
Most AFV, such as the Tiger I and II have fuel tanks in the rear right up against the side armor.  If what this guy says is true about bouncing AP off that armor blowing up the fuel tanks is true, the war would have ended very quickly.
 
BTW, what I thought was brakes in the front compartment may actually be track tensioners.  It may be that teh brakes are in the rear also.  Bet it was hot back there.  They may have actually used the engine intake to suck air from the fighting compartment.  Not a bad scheme.  That roof ventilator seems WAY small and probably was just good for sucking out the 88 fumes.
 
I am very interested in the actual voltage/amps and control scheme used.  If anyone knows a detailed book, I will buy it. 

Forty didn't list any sources.

Good Hunting.

MR

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
I am very interested in the actual voltage/amps and control scheme used.  If anyone knows a detailed book, I will buy it. 

Generator: Bosch GOL 300/12 Batteries/Volt/Ah:4/12/120

Thanks.  The batteries are really for just starting the gasoline engines.  It isn't like my highlander hybrid car with lightweight battery packs.
 
The main thing would be 'what voltage does the generator make at a certain RPM from the gas engines?'.  Also what amps could it put out.
 
The electrical motors in the back could be either AC or DC rated.  Of course, the generators are either AC or DC also.  Basiically, the higher the voltage, the less the current and less copper is needed.  I suspect that the voltage is low and that is why they are burning things out.  Also, lower voltage means lower speed.  But, on a positive note, I bet the vehicle had OK low end torque.
 
The scheme is very similar to a diesel-electric train.  The scheme works better on larger platforms.

I found this at AHF but also at TPG:

http://www.garykrockover.com/cmbb/resea ... ml?sku=279

1. Guards Capt. Samokhin Konstantin, 4th Tank Brigade, BT-7, T-34 died in 1942 69 + 13 other AFVs, 82 guns, 117 motor vehicles
2. Lt. Lavrinenko Dmitry (T-34, 4th Tank Brigade), Hero of the Soviet Union (1985!), died in Nov. 1941 52 incl. StuGs, + some guns, mortars and cars. In October of 1941 his T-34 destroyed 16 German tanks in a single combat. Scored 52 victories in 28 engagements before he was killed defending Moscow in 1941

3. Sr. Lt. Kolobanov Zinovy (KV-1, 1st tank division) 23 + 3 ATGs; destroyed 22 tanks + 2 ATGs on 19 August 1941 for 3 hours! KV withstood 135 hits.
4. Guards Lt. Maksakov Vladimir (T-34-85, 45th Guards tank brigade) 18 Including three Tigers!

5. Jr.lt. Kashnikov P.M. (T-34, 6th Guards mech corps) 17 inc. StuGs;
6. Lt. Konovalov Semen (KV-1, 15th tank brigade) 16 + 2 arm.cars and 8 cars; all tanks destroyed in one combat on 13 July 1943
7. Lt. Khoroshilov Pavel (KV-1, 12th tank regiment) 16 incl 4 SPGs ; + other vehicles
8. St. Nurtynov (SU-122), 1945 15 + 20 guns and mortars
9. Salnikov Mikhail 15
10.Guards Lt. Bessarabov Georgy
(T-34, 1st Guards tank brigade), Dec. 1943 12 Including 5 Tigers!
Guard Lt. M.Pobedinsky 13 Including Panthers and Tigers!
11. Lt. Deputatov Ivan (JS-2, 36th tank brigade) , 1945 11 incl. 2 StuGs; + 3 halftracks
12. Lt. Silachyev Alexey (1943) 11 In one combat in 1943
13. Lt. Dmitriev Maxim (1943) 11 In one combat in 1943
14. Stepanov Konstantin (46th tank brigade) 11 + 5 ATGs
15. Lt. Gudz Pavel (KV-1, 89th separate tank battalion) 10 + 4 ATGs, during 1 combat
16. Guards Lt. Sokolov Yury Sergeyevich (T-34, 45 Guards tank brigade) 10 incl. 9 StuGs; + 2 ATGs, 2 strongpoints, 8 halftracks, 15 cars
17.Sr lt. Khazov Vladimir (6th tank brigade) 10+
18. Major Sankovsky (SU-152) 10 during 1 day 1943
19. Jr.lt. Miljukov Alexander (KV, T-34-76, T-34-85, 53rd Guards tank brigade), Hero of the Soviet Union, 1945 9 + some ATGs (6 Tigers + 1 Panther)
20. Lt. Lazeykin N. (14th tank regiment) 9 during 1 combat , including three Tigers!
21. Lt. Kukarin (T-34, 4th tank brigade) 9 during 1 combat;
22. Ljubushkin Ivan (SU-122), Hero of the Soviet Union 9 incl. 5 StuGs; + 15 ATGs
23. Capt. Bosov Alexey (KV-1) 8 + 1 plane(rammed) on 18th November 1941; also few guns on 27th August 1939
24. Korolkv Ivan (T-34, 133rd tank brigade) 8 + 2 guns, during 1 combat in 1942 near Kharkov
25. Borisov I.F. (T-34/85, 36th Guards tank brigade) , 1945 8 + 5 halftracks, 18 to 21 february 1945;
26. Lt. Zhabin I.N. (KV, 10th tank division) 8 + many cars, during 1 day 1941;
27. Sr. lt. Sholokhov Dmitry (KV, 158th tank brigade) , 1942 8 + 10 cars, in one combat
28. Jr.lt. Kurlyand (T-34, 3rd Guards tank brigade) 8 during 1 combat
29. Lt. Sergeev (KV-1, 1st tank division) 8 during 1 combat
30. Guards Lt. Tokarev (T-34-85, 52rd Guards tank brigade) 8 during 1 combat;
Including two Tigers and three Panthers!
31. Guards Lt. Nagumanov Deylegay (166th Guards separate eng.-t. brig.), 1944 8 during 1 combat
32. Lt. Zamula Mikhail (200th tank brigade) , 1944 7 All seven Tigers !
33.Guards Jr.lt. Golub Ivan (T-34/85, 13th Guards tank brigade) , 1944 7 + 5 ATGs ; including 3 Tigers and 2 Panthers
34. Jr.lt. Ljaschenko (18th tank brigade) 7
35. Jr.lt. Babkov A. (T-34) 7 incl. 1 Ferdinand!;
Guard Colonel N.G.Zhukov (1945), 10th Guard Tank Corps 7 Incl. Panthers
36. Gorobets (T-34; 21st tank brigade) 7
37. Guards Capt. Danilov Alexey
(T-34, 3rd Guards mechanised corps) 7 on 24th September 1943
Lt. Ivan Lupov, Hero of the Soviet Union, 1941 (Katukov Brigade) 7 + 2 PAKs +5 mortars
38. Dashinsky (KV-1) 6 + 18 guns and 6 mortars, on 3rd October 1942
39. Andronov V. (143rd tank regiment) 6 + 2 ATGs
40. Lt. Brazhnikov Grigory (T-34), 1943 6 Including 5 Tigers!
41. Guards Jr.lt.Yermolaev Vasily (T-34-85, 12th Guards tank brigade), Hero of the Soviet Union 6 during 1 combat, including four Tiger II !
42. Guards Jr.lt. Stepan Kraynev (T-34, 52rd Guards tank brigade) 6 during 1 combat , including two Panthers!
43. Simenchuk Nikolay 6 during 1 combat
44. Lt. Minenko (T-34) 6 on 21st November 1941
45. Lt. Alexey Yerohin (T-34) 6 all StuG, during 2 days in 1943
46. Lt. Chuchuka (T-34, 197 tank brigade) 6 all StuG, 1943
47. Guards Jr.lt. Oskin Alexander (T-34/85, 53rd Guards tank brigade) 6
Including three Tiger II !
48. Jamaletdinov Shagiy (T-34, 41st Guards tank brigade) 5 + 8 ATGs and 3 halftracks
49. Capt. Reshetnikov Nikolay (25st tank brigade) 5 incl 1 StuG ; + 12 cars
50. Guards Lt. Hitzenko Ivan (JS-2), died in 1945 5 during 1 combat , including Tiger II
51. Lt. Pechnikov S.K. (1st tank division) 5 during 4 days in 1941, + 3 mortars;
52. Lt. Frolov M. (178th tank brigade) 5 during 1 combat , including three Tigers!
53. Lt. Stropin 5
54. 1st lt. Lobanov Andrey (T-34) , 1943 5 during 1 combat
55. Jr. Lt. Lyangasov (T-34/85), 1944 4 4 Panzers + 10 trucks
56. Lt. Maslov Vasily some + 8 halftracks and 2 ATGs, 65 cars
57. Guard Lt. Gregory Chesak (T-34-85), 10th Guards Tank Corps 3 3 Tigers in one combat!
58. St. Lt. Boris Golubovsky, 79th Tank Brigade, T-34/85 3 2 Tigers +1 StuG in one combat in 1944
59. Capt. V. Bochkovsky, (1st Guard Tank Brigade), March 1944 2 2 Tigers in one combat

ORIGINAL: Mobius

ORIGINAL: Yoozername
I am very interested in the actual voltage/amps and control scheme used.  If anyone knows a detailed book, I will buy it. 

Generator: Bosch GOL 300/12 Batteries/Volt/Ah:4/12/120

According to AHF:

Automotive specifications
Engine Maybach HL120 TRM V-12 water cooled 11.9 liter gasoline
Horsepowers 265 @ 2600rpm
Transmission 2xSiemens generators Typ K58-5 500 volt-amps. 2xSiemens Electric motors 1495a 230Kw



Note that the Ferdinand had TWO StuG motors!

But each petrol motor was started by the batteries Mobius listed. In fact, the vehicle is a 12V system, and the batteries were put in parallel when running 12V, but when starting the batteries were switched in series and this gave 24V and the starter was evidently rated for this voltage.

But the petrol motors, once running just drove the Siemans generators. Each gas motor had a generator on its output shaft. These fed the electrical motors at the rear. Since the e-motors are rated at 230KW (308HP), they SHOULD have been able to handle the 265HP gas motor output (since the generator would have some losses). But an electric motor, any motor, hates heat and having them so close in the rear and running them in summer weather probably derated them.

The one thing I would want to know is the voltage rating of the motors. The 500 volt-amps rating on the generator can't be right. It's too low.

http://cs.finescale.com/FSMCS/forums/t/86103.aspx?PageIndex=1
 
Some fun Ferdinand info here.  One person claims the motors were DC.  Ouch.  That means brush motor technology.  Keep the fuel away from those motors!  They would be sparking!

http://panzerfaust.ca/AFV%20interiors/elefant.html
 
Here is the old afv interiors web info regarding the Ferdinand.  Don't use the links at the bottom of the page but just use these links below...
 
http://panzerfaust.ca/AFV%20interiors/elefant2.html
 
http://panzerfaust.ca/AFV%20interiors/elefant3.html
 
http://panzerfaust.ca/AFV%20interiors/elefant4.html
 
 

From reviewing the afv interior shots and info:
 
The afv did use the fighting compartment to filter air for the petrol engines intake.  The actual filters are in the compartment.  This would certainly cool the compartment down which is nice in the summer.  But in the case of molotov cocktail attack, the fire/fumes/smoke would be drawn inside through any open hatch or other access point. 
 
The commander had a back up means to communicate with the driver.  He had a wheel and could give commands like a ship captain.  The mechanical action would be relaid to the driver.  But the radio guy depended on commo to interact with the commander.
 
The track tensioners are in the front and there are other means to stop the vehicle.  This included some electrical means which means the electrical engines would get hot from stopping the vehicle.  But have driven tracked vehicles, they tend to stop themselves unless on some steep hill.
 
The only explanation I can think of for having toothed wheels on the front is to have a built in spare for the back.  I imagine a heavy afv could take a beating on this toothed wheel especially from using a drive that could produce strong torque.
 
The electric motors in the back must go through some 3 speed transmission device.  Driving this thing could be fun even if slow.
 
I can't see why they used gasoline engines.  They should have used diesel. The thing was a gas hog.

The front sprockets were brake drums. The had an issue when trying to overhaul it on the TV show "Tank Overhaul" 4 of 5 and 5 of 5 show it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WKxquvOW ... re=related

You are correct.  I was looking at the interior pics.  Oh that Dr. Porsche. 

The afv could use short-tracking, in my opinion. That is where the track is not wrapped around all wheels. If that front 'idler' was damaged, then the track could just go around the roadwheels and drive wheel in the back. This enables a vehicle to get off the front lines.