Matrix Games Forums

Damn!

LoBaron post:
https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 7#p3470527

"But here comes the jackpot:

During the turn, at each unloading phase, there are ships docking even if the TF the specific ship is part of is too big to dock. At each turn the docking manager uses the possible maximum of docking space for a number of individual ships that fit, whether they belong to a TF or not. This is not visible on the TF screen, as the TF itself will remain undocked."


My TF was attacked three times form air. Each time, the only ship present in combat animation/combat report was DD John D.Edwards. The xAK was strangely missing. Now it all makes sense. The dock manager undocked the DD, while the xAK was DOCKED all the time during those three air attacks!

The TF screen cannot display TF's docking and undocking at once, there can only be one value - either docked ur undocked (this follows Combat Report limitation for Shock Attack value - even if just one LCU in a big stack shock attacks, the Combat Report will display Shock Attack for the entire stack).

Since the DD is leading the TF (# sign), the TF screen reports the TF is undocked.

EDIT: So, in a way, it pays off to add escort ships to cargo TF. Your xAK/xAKL unloads invisibly docked, while your escorts are at sea serving as a bait to enemy bombers.

The three air attacks on the truncated TF. xAK Doryssa in nowhere to be seen. Notice that second and third attack use torps, and torps on port attack are only allowed in Pearl Harbor, thus we can surmise that at the time of both attacks xAK Doryssa was DOCKED in Manila. Otherwise, she should have been easily torpedoed at sea.

Morning Air attack on TF, near Manila at 79,77

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 106 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 35 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 12
Ki-21-Ic Sally x 6

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 4
P-40B Warhawk x 4
P-40E Warhawk x 13

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
Ki-21-Ic Sally: 2 destroyed, 1 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
P-40B Warhawk: 1 destroyed
P-40E Warhawk: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD John D. Edwards

Aircraft Attacking:
3 x Ki-21-Ic Sally bombing from 15000 feet *
Naval Attack: 2 x 250 kg SAP Bomb




Morning Air attack on TF, near Manila at 79,77

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 5,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 14 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 8
G4M1 Betty x 6

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 1
P-40E Warhawk x 7

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 2 destroyed
G4M1 Betty: 1 destroyed, 1 damaged

No Allied losses

Allied Ships
DD John D. Edwards

Aircraft Attacking:
5 x G4M1 Betty launching torpedoes at 200 feet
Naval Attack: 1 x 18in Type 91 Torpedo




Afternoon Air attack on TF, near Manila at 79,77

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 20 NM, estimated altitude 10,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 7 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 15
G3M2 Nell x 3

Allied aircraft
P-35A x 4
P-40B Warhawk x 3
P-40E Warhawk x 9

Japanese aircraft losses
A6M2 Zero: 1 destroyed
G3M2 Nell: 1 destroyed

Allied aircraft losses
P-35A: 1 destroyed

Allied Ships
DD John D. Edwards

Aircraft Attacking:
2 x G3M2 Nell launching torpedoes at 200 feet

Docked ships in a TF are not attacked during a port strike, ships that are not in a task force are considered to be at anchor and may be attacked during a port strike. Also:

"6.1 TASK FORCES AND SHIPS
.
.
.
Ships begin scenarios either in TFs, or “at anchor” in a port. Ships that are at anchor will not
move, but they will defend the base if attacked, adding half their AA firepower to the base in
defense of the port."


"6.2.15 DOCKING
TFs may dock at a friendly base (this is different from ships anchored at a port because they’re
not assigned to a TF). Ships that are docked do not suffer operational damage and will be able
to repair damage faster than if at sea, but they will also be easier to hit by attacking aircraft.
There is a limitation on the total ship “tonnage” of TFs that may “Dock” at Ports of various
sizes. However, there is no limitation on the size of a TF that may “Disband” (anchor) at any
Port. Ships can load and unload cargos when not docked (via lighters) but at a much slower
rate.
Docked TF’s do not use Endurance, but they will automatically respond to enemy naval forces
(both reaction moves and to engage an enemy fleet in the same hex), in which case they will
no longer be docked."

I guess undocking is logical, since they are trying to avoid attack and not be "sitting ducks".

I stand corrected. Sardaukar is right. I guess sardaukars are dancing now on Salsa Secundus.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p2390468

Basically, I trusted my memory and thought docked TF are immune to bombers' Naval Attack.


However, one question remains:

Are TFs/ships, docked at any port level (1-10), immune to Naval Attack bombers which attack with torpedoes?

Yaab wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 5:15 am I stand corrected. Sardaukar is right. I guess sardaukars are dancing now on Salsa Secundus.

https://www.matrixgames.com/forums/view ... 8#p2390468

Basically, I trusted my memory and thought docked TF are immune to bombers' Naval Attack.


However, one question remains:

Are TFs/ships, docked at any port level (1-10), immune to Naval Attack bombers which attack with torpedoes?

They should not be immune.

This picture is from that link, but mini-submarines can attack ships disbanded (at anchor) in a port.
I seem to remember from an AAR where I believe it was the Repulse was on a bombardment mission and ruined a battleship's (Nagato or Mutsu?) whole day by hitting the periodical section of the library. Yes, the magazine just blew up! (And probably down somewhat as well.)

Right, so docked TF are not immune to torpedo attack from air. Good to know.

Now, since under the hood, the code can dock individual ships in a seemingly undocked TF, I wonder how that influences bomber targeting.
Take the three combat reports I posted. xAK Doryssa is not targeted at all. Seems the bombers went for the undocked ship, the DD.

Port torpedo attacks are very rare, don't think I have seen any in my game right now (in Nov 1944 already) apart from initial PH attack.

Torpedo attacks happen raely in port attacks. TF docked are not considered to be part of a port, they are separate entities requiring naval attack and are subject to torp attacks. I have always assumed the AI automatically adjusts the load out for naval attacks against potentially dock ships as it does for port attacks although the rules do not specify? Historically, torps used in PH had to be tinkered with to get them to operate in shallow water. Not an everday solution.

From the new manual page 164 on port attacks.

'Bombers attacking ports will attack any ships at anchor 50% of the time, however, TF’s docked in port will not be
attacked. These attacks (sic port) use bombs with only a small percentage of torpedo bombers using torpedoes (as it is assumed
these ships may be in dry dock or protected by torpedo nets). If there are less than 10 ships at port, the chance of
bombers attacking ships lessens with each number less than 10 (so, bombers would be more likely to attack ships if 9
were in port as opposed to 4).'

Might have to monitor the behavior unless someones already done it.

Got tired of surmising so I've tested it but in the words of Johnny Nash, 'There are more questions than answers'.

These test were solely for the purpose of testing undocking although other things came to light.

First I set PM to level 4 later 6 and Milne to level 2 port. Created two TFs, one with 4 xAK docked in PM and the other with 1 xAKL and an 1 xAK docked in Milne. Also put some ships in PM.

For the Japanese I used 1x12 Betties group based in Rabaul plus the two small patrol detachments (2ac each) as search units with 10 degree arcs over PM and Milne. Later I had to increased one of the search groups to 12ac with 30 degree arcs centred over either PM, Milne or Lae.

I varied the number of ac flying missions by changing the number at rest. Using all 12 Betties of a group to attack either PM and Milne tended to cause too much damage so had to reduce the number flying using rest. (When I attacked a TF all ships were sunk in the first turn. Not good when the whole object of the test was to see if TF undocked).

No particular test was carried out more than 10 times with any particular setting although some tests repeated one setting. E.g. Mission, range, number of ac on mission etc. There was no CAP in any test.

Here's the nitty gritty. During the testing it threw up some anomalies and surprising results which resulted in me having to carry out a search test.

Undocking
Any offensive mission on a hex can cause a TF to undock, that's Naval, Port, AF, Ground, Recon, or search. Whether it does or not is random affected by and I think in this order.

Here's my obs.
• If it's spotted. The primary reason I think but not absolute.
• Size of port with small ports more likely to.
• Type of mission.
• Number of ac
• Routing control has no effect on ships in port.

The anomalies.

Port Attacks
Results were perfectly clear from the outset and in line with what the manual says but with extras. Here's my obs.
• Ports were attack. Only missions with 3 or more ac were flown.
• Ports were only attack once a day.
• Search mission were irrelevant. Searched or not the bases were attacked.
• Anchored ships were attacked sometimes. Don't know the percentage but I'll go with what the manual says, 50%
• Never saw a torp used in any attack against any anchored ship, so rare.
• TF in the port were spotted
• TF undocked in all sized (2,4,6) ports every time the port was attack.
• TF were never attacked.

Search test
This is not an all inclusive search test, never test max range or anything approaching it. It was solely for the purposes of finding if TF docked in either PM (11 hex range) or Milne (9 hex range) from Rabaul.

I suggest you all forget what you think you know about searches after reading this, or is it me that didn't know it?.

The problems I encountered were overcome by increasing a groups ac to 12ac patrol with a 30 degree arc centred over either PM, Milne or Lae.

My obs are.
• Searches with fewer than 3 ac are almost pointless, they find next to squat. The two small patrol det at Rabaul were next to useless. Why? Because unless you spot a TF you can't attack it and it was rare for either of the two det to spot the docked TF at PM or Milne.
• Search ranges are wrong! Where strike missions (port or naval) occurred at the correct range (11 PM, 9 Milne), searches did not. It was only when I increased the range to 12 and 10 respectively did I ever find the TF, hence able to attack them.
• Searches will sometimes cause TF to undock. The more ac involved or the smaller the port the more likely it is to undock.
• Searches will sometimes attack ships/subs.
• TF in the port were not always found, docked or not.
• Search groups using arc will also randomly find things outside of the arcs set.
• Not using search arcs spotted the TF more often with more accurate info than using arcs! Are search arcs actually working? Surely these the results should be reversed.

Naval Attack
My obs are.
•TF were attacked. Only missions with 3 or more ac were flown.
• TF in ports were only attacked if spotted.
• Range matters. TFs were never attacked outside of the air groups set range.
• Any TF in range can be attacked in either or both day phases by the same unit.
• The load out (torps or bombs) were always used, docked or not.
• Ports were never attack
• TF randomly became undocked (see above).

Excellent post. Saving it for future reference.

And thank you!

RangerJoe wrote: Wed Jul 24, 2024 11:39 am This picture is from that link, but mini-submarines can attack ships disbanded (at anchor) in a port.

ships in ports how attacked.jpg

I seem to remember from an AAR where I believe it was the Repulse was on a bombardment mission and ruined a battleship's (Nagato or Mutsu?) whole day by hitting the periodical section of the library. Yes, the magazine just blew up! (And probably down somewhat as well.)

RJ- you have piqued my interest in this chart. I am wondering if perhaps it would be worthwhile to see if I could somehow fit it in my Port Logistics Chart when I update it for the final patch. It's damn useful info to have at hand for sure.
I will take a look and see what I can do. Part of my charge I gave myself in doing these playaids was to gather as much of the "must have" stuff and incorporate it.
Thanks!

Forgot this, added it to post.

Routing control has no effect on undocking.