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RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:12 am
by AFV
ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Yes... I think Michael has hit the nail on the heat, and that any refinement of VC rules can only be done on a one to one or individual game basis. The simple fact is that any modification to the game VC code, would never be excepted by the two sides (Axis/Soviet) of the game.

I respect your opinion, but I must disagree. The Alt scenario, that is quite popular, disproves this. Not to say that creating victory conditions that take into account territory/cities on a turn by turn cumulative basis is trivial- it certainly is not- and balance would be tricky to say the least- which is why I think making it slightly random, as someone suggested above, is a good idea. I think Michael's point was that it would have to be on an individual basis because, for WITE 1.x at least, its doubtful the devs will offer such a scenario, due to the risk it would be unbalanced and would lead to additional work/manhours to get it right.

RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:57 am
by Baelfiin
ORIGINAL: DivePac88



Just as a side note; I have wargamed this campaign for over thirty-five years now, and WitE with it's wort's and all. Is still one-millions times better than playing on a tabletop with cardboard counters, and a rule book written in indecipherable Mayan text.


Much easier to set up and take down as well 8)

RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 2:28 am
by LiquidSky


What I think would work well for victory is for the two sides to gain/lose victory points for different reasons.

The Germans should gain victory points for causing casualties to the Russians. That's it.

The Russians should gain victory points for taking territory from the axis, and lose points for losing Manpower Centers (by certain dates). That's it.

When the differential reaches a certain point....you win. So no massive retreats from Russian manpower centers for the Red Army. They will lose too many points. The Germans have the incentive to fight, even in bad conditions. The Russians want to push forward to regain lost victory points and score new ones (in Axis territory).

Of course, the devil is in the details.

RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 12:13 pm
by swkuh
Given the very interesting suggestions being discussed, developers might become more focused on VP effects than on the combat engine, logistics model, 2nd front effects, or who knows what.

Waiting to see WitW & WitE 2.0 and hoping for improvements to the essential game engines and realistic detailing of elements.

RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 1:18 pm
by The Guru
May I ask Mr Michael T what his "crude SD VC" are?

I'm afraid I'll have to devise my own, so I'd love to see what others, who seem to agree with my point of view, have thought of already.

RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 3:54 pm
by Flaviusx
ORIGINAL: rrbill

Given the very interesting suggestions being discussed, developers might become more focused on VP effects than on the combat engine, logistics model, 2nd front effects, or who knows what.

Waiting to see WitW & WitE 2.0 and hoping for improvements to the essential game engines and realistic detailing of elements.

This is exactly wrong, imo. Without addressing basic mechanical problems in the game it will be impossible to implement the sorts of VP changes being suggested here.

I can tell you right now that any attempt to force a forward defense on the Soviets in 1941 by VPs, leaving everything else as is, will be a disaster. It is impossible to do this as things presently stand. So you are putting the cart before the horse. VPs won't fix problems with the game, they will actually make them worse. Likewise, nobody is very happy about the way the blizzard works in this game. And the late war Axis has the same problems that the Soviets do in 1941, again due to mechanical problems with the game.

I therefore am far far more interested in getting those other things fixed up before seriously addressing VPs. The combat engine and logistics have to actually make sense in the first instance.

RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 5:22 pm
by janh
ORIGINAL: Flaviusx
This is exactly wrong, imo. Without addressing basic mechanical problems in the game it will be impossible to implement the sorts of VP changes being suggested here.

They surely have a list of priorities, and I am pretty convinced they'll make sure the foundations will be strong before the raise the walls, so to speak. VPs are one area to improve, but surely the basic mechanics ranks a lot higher.

So many people have voiced their concerns about the blizzard penalties being to strong or coming from nowhere, and they already present a new logistics model for WitW. Probably that model will be detailed enough, or designed such that it can be expanded for WitE2 or WiEurope so that winterization and logistic breakdown can occur naturally, and locally at some parts of the front, while in others Wehrmacht can still counterattack or hold tight.
Hopefully that system will now also make the steadfastness of pocketed units a function of detailed supplies, and enable enduring pockets etc.

So many people have brought up the issue of Soviet reinforcement numbers being too low (manpower wise, and unit shells/AP cost wise), that I am sure they'll consider that when re-balancing the blizzard period. Even amongst everyone here playing the game, and having to equal degrees experience with both sides, there is no consensus whether the Soviet side is too strong or two weak. No one has proof, and many games are so divergent, so different with course and opponents, strategies etc. I almost think seeing no consensus means that for the whole course of a GC, the balance is right, though not for the right reasons since during certain periods, like blizzard, things cause severe debate.

My experience is still that it is now too weak after the latest patches taming blizzard (which was a good thing, though, and not even far enough), not only from comparing bare numbers, but the real, overall combat value. If one side plays it carefully with using all hindsight, and the other repeats historical mistakes, i.e. counterattacking oft wastefully and holding when wisdom would dictate to retreat and fight another day with more favorable conditions, the latter gets thrashed. You don't need a PBEM with an equal or better opponent to reproduce this, you can play fool with the AI. And it holds true for both sides, just that in one case it is the blizzard penalties causing the issue, and in the other it becomes an issue due to the Wehrmacht advancing faster, and smarter with to hindsight while the Soviet numbers and/or counters are too weak. During the Barbarossa phase, it seems like Wehrmacht benefits most from hindsight. In both cases the logistics system makes things more critical, and the I-go-U-go that leaves you blind-guessing for large periods, a week, while the phasing attacker only can move units.

Let's hope they'll carefully reevaluate these questions that surfaced with WitE for its successor.

RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2013 7:01 pm
by Michael T
@Guru

go here

tm.asp?m=3268003

RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 2:14 pm
by The Guru
Without addressing basic mechanical problems in the game it will be impossible to implement the sorts of VP changes being suggested here.

I can tell you right now that any attempt to force a forward defense on the Soviets in 1941 by VPs, leaving everything else as is, will be a disaster. It is impossible to do this as things presently stand. So you are putting the cart before the horse. VPs won't fix problems with the game, they will actually make them worse. Likewise, nobody is very happy about the way the blizzard works in this game. And the late war Axis has the same problems that the Soviets do in 1941, again due to mechanical problems with the game.

I guess you might be right. It's just that I wouldn't even dream for such majors changes (with which I agree 100%) to be implemented anytime soon. Whereas VC changes leave the core of the game mechanisms untouched, so I hoped maybe they would make it to be, at least, considered.

But then, I suppose WitE 1.X has reached the final stage of its evolution. 2.0 Will be a whole new battle.

RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2013 8:45 pm
by sillyflower
ORIGINAL: Baelfiin

ORIGINAL: DivePac88



Just as a side note; I have wargamed this campaign for over thirty-five years now, and WitE with it's wort's and all. Is still one-millions times better than playing on a tabletop with cardboard counters, and a rule book written in indecipherable Mayan text.


Much easier to set up and take down as well 8)

But nothing beats taking an opponent's counters/model soldiers off the table or watching him do it[:D]

RE: Territory matters!

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 11:04 am
by swkuh
@flaviusx: Oh my... I stated my comment about VP poorly. [&:] Meant that the combat engine should reflect the value of defended areas or objectives. Seems that forces should expend more strength for higher VP sites than for open terrain.

Of course, designers should prioritize the game engine faults. Goes w/o saying. IMO, the term v2.0 suggests that a much improved product is coming. Less "buggy" through wise design reflecting experience. One hopes for many things, not just correction to V 1.nn shortcomings. Many things.