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RE: Assaulting
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 3:39 pm
by RockinHarry
Yep, it really depends much on actual terrain and whether an attacking AI consolidates on an objective. While I see it mostly in Veritable, you can see it also in the stock missions. Play St Vith german side i.e and sooner or later you´ll see mortars and other vulnerable units coming too close for comfort.
I highly suspect unit and leader Aggro setting to cause some the troubles, as well as unit initial morale and experience. The 4th armored in St Vith is uber elite, so I do not wonder these guys have a bit much of self confidence.
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Tue Mar 19, 2013 4:01 pm
by RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Rock64
Since some of this discussion is on ammo use...
"BTW as a side note, no artillery gun anywhere (in the US Army at any rate) ever fired more than about 800 rounds in any day (Trevor Dupuy, Search for Historical Records of High Rate Artillery Fire in Combat Situations, 1978). This was the extreme high, and a more typical high for any given battery is likely to be on the order of several rounds per gun per day. Apparently logistical limits more than anything tended to prevent firing a larger number of missions."
Averaging usually does not give accurate numbers. Off course most ammo expenditures were before major offensive and defensive operations at a limited time. Even the allies had to decide where to concentrate available resources, ie. when Patton was in Alsace-Lorraine, most was sent to support Monty´s MG operation. Ammo resupply was equally low, when the FUSA reached the Aachen sector in late September, until late oktober 1944. Another key point is not ammo expenditure for single gun tubes, it´s rather concentrating as many tubes as possible in shortest time on an important target to have decisive effects. That´s what the US excelled at and late war, it was the only means for germans to employ their meager resources effectively.
I´d wish for the AI in CO doing the same, as I rarely see it using massed fires at decisive points. A human player can easily defeat the AI (attacking), by concentrating Arty+Mortars at these decisive points, the more that it tends to bunch up when halted by first shells landing. Successive lines formation makes a particularly good target for those massed fires. Just wait for the lead unit to be halted, wait a bit for other units to follow up and then...[:D]
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:05 pm
by Rock64
In my experience with the game a human player can easily defeat the AI in almost all the scenarios because he has unrealistic control over his artillery.
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 7:16 pm
by Phoenix100
Wish that was my experience, Rock 64. Well, actually, I don't. But it's certainly NOT my experience. Of course, it wouldn't be hard to be better than me at this game, but there are many scenarios (most, in fact) where it takes me many runs through before I can get more than a marginal or a draw. And I use arty very carefully and extensively (in that unrealistic way you mean) - it still doesn't make it the push-over you suggest. Far from it. If, for example, I've played Hofen about ten times seriously (not on full speed, using arty as you say) then I've only twice got a total victory (and not in succession), and about six times would have been a draw. For me that's a win for the AI. You sure you're not exaggerating?
I would love to see an AAR (seriously - not doubting you, but just so I could learn from it) where you play Manhay on realistic, all historic settings and get anything more than a draw, for Axis. I mean it. Help, if you can. Be great to see that AAR. Actually you could get a marginal, maybe (on second thoughts - though I can't recall ever getting one, I might have). But surely not a total/decisive victory?
That does make me think abut the arty though. I would actually prefer to play realistically with it - with no player-directed arty fire allowed (or very limited, perhaps) - but if you do that (and I have) then it feels to me that you certainly don't stand a chance against the AI. So the arty is certainly a powerful factor, a crucial factor, of course, that can make or break your chances, but perhaps, in that respect, the 'unrealistic' player control worries me less than the unrealistic AI control (assuming you want to play that way). Then again, for all I know, the AI control is realistic (ie 'not very effective sometimes')
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:05 pm
by RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Rock64
In my experience with the game a human player can easily defeat the AI in almost all the scenarios because he has unrealistic control over his artillery.
Define "unrealistic control" please! Isn´t the same unrealistic control available to the AI?
I bet, with RL Arty employment mechanics implemented in the game, you´ll see either half as much Arty barrages in general, or at least employed in way better organized ways.
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 8:29 pm
by RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: phoenix
That does make me think abut the arty though. I would actually prefer to play realistically with it - with no player-directed arty fire allowed (or very limited, perhaps) - but if you do that (and I have) then it feels to me that you certainly don't stand a chance against the AI. So the arty is certainly a powerful factor, a crucial factor, of course, that can make or break your chances, but perhaps, in that respect, the 'unrealistic' player control worries me less than the unrealistic AI control (assuming you want to play that way). Then again, for all I know, the AI control is realistic (ie 'not very effective sometimes')
Yep, just think of the terms offensive and defensive fire plans. It´s realistic to plan that stuff as human player (at least before a battle starts), but the AI can´t (isn´t effective at it), at least I didn´t notice any such capabilities. Sometimes more restrictions are necessary, particularly during fluid battles, but in general, most WW2 nations had a great portion of fexibility doctrinally anchored and trained, with exception of russians maybe.
Personally I´d wish for Arty in AI hands to better employ massed fires at really important placec, instead of scattering it wildly all across the map.
I have the impression the AI is way to much focused on "threats" (which could be anywhere, but not necessarily at important places), instead of "targets", particularly important ones, like at assault or defense objectives.
It´s oftentimes like... "Hey, were´re attacked by a wave of infantry just before us, but I feel way more "threatened" by that mortar (tank, flak,..) unit on the hill over there. So lets call for some Arty support to remove that "threat", before it starts shooting at us."
I do a whole lot of play testing with TLOS active and it´s very interesting to see what a unit finds "threatening" and what not.
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:05 pm
by BletchleyGeek
ORIGINAL: RockinHarry
I have the impression the AI is way to much focused on "threats" (which could be anywhere, but not necessarily at important places), instead of "targets", particularly important ones, like at assault or defense objectives.
As I described a few posts above, the AI behavior is mostly influenced by the Objectives the scenario designer sets. I don't know if the AI recognizes any "threats" other than "threats to objectives".
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:12 pm
by Arjuna
I believe Harry is talking about how the on call arty responds. If that is the case, then yes he is correct to a degree. However, onCall arty will also respond to targets of opportunity such masses reorging enemy units even though these may not be a direct threat to the requesting unit.
I agree that in the long run it would be good to implement realistic fire plans. But these will require implementing sequential tasking for the human player. This is yet to be done. We could do it for the AI but then human players would be handicapped and so I have not given it a priority so far.
We used to have a preparatory bombardment task but without the sequential tasking it does handicap a force with just a single indirect fire unit, such as a Bn with its mortar platoon.
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 9:30 pm
by RockinHarry
ORIGINAL: Arjuna
I believe Harry is talking about how the on call arty responds. If that is the case, then yes he is correct to a degree. However, onCall arty will also respond to targets of opportunity such masses reorging enemy units even though these may not be a direct threat to the requesting unit.
I agree that in the long run it would be good to implement realistic fire plans. But these will require implementing sequential tasking for the human player. This is yet to be done. We could do it for the AI but then human players would be handicapped and so I have not given it a priority so far.
We used to have a preparatory bombardment task but without the sequential tasking it does handicap a force with just a single indirect fire unit, such as a Bn with its mortar platoon.
Yep, thanks, I meant on call artillery response, or in other words, what makes a particular unit call for Arty support.
I understand that it´s a difficult tasks to implement all this, so I just keep it on my wish list and hope for a better personal understanding of the system as is now and maybe in the near future. [:)]
I have some pretty good collection on german Arty doctrine and practical employment, in case you need some more reference material:
http://www.spwaw.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=18276
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 10:48 pm
by wodin
I usually let the AI manage my Arty..the odd occasion bombarding using the main Div or Corps assets. I like the role play experience...also it evens up the game. Poor arty..I shoot the commander games end.
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:25 pm
by BletchleyGeek
I was happy to find in my mail this morning this book
The Defense of Moscow 1941: The Northern Flank
By Jack Radey & Charles Sharp
Pen & Sword Military Publishing Company
Jack Radey might be a familiar name to some of you, he was the designer of one of the best games on the Korsun Pocket
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/ ... sun-pocket
This is (personal appraisal next) a very nice book, covering in detail the operations of PanzerGruppe 3 on the northern flank of Operation Typhoon, around Kalinin (a extremely dynamic battle which is quite interesting).
The relevant thing to this discussion is that the authors, besides offering a narrative and analysis of operations, it also includes as an Appendix daily orders of PzGruppe 3., as given by Reinhardt himself. This particular passage is quite related to the discussions we're having in this thread:
XXXI (Motorized) Corps Order #31/41
October 16th, 1941
3. Objectives for 17 October 1941
a) 1st Panzer Division will attack with the mass of the division towards Torzhok while holding a support position at Mednoye. The division will as soon as possible pass the securing of Kalinin to 36th Motorized Division and during its advance provide its own security to the west.
The remainder of the forces in the bridgehead at Staritsa (without 2nd Bn 59th Artillery Regiment) will rejoin the division during the course of 17 October.
b) 36th Motorized Division will take over the defense of Kalinin and move into the northeast part of the city. The division will advance to the west corresponding to the action of 1st Panzer Division against forces along the Kalinin-Torzhok road, relieving the securing forces of 1st Panzer Division at the earliest. Especially, it is important to prevent units from the west from pushing between the Volga and 1st Panzer Division. Details are to be worked out between the divisions directly. The 1st Bn 118th Infantry Regiment in the bridgehead at Staritsa will rejoin the division during 17 October.
<I snip other orders>
d) 6th Panzer Division will give the bulk of its fuel supplies to 114th Rifle Regiment (minus 2nd Bn) and on 17 October move it to Kalinin. With the arrival of this reinforced Kampfgruppe, the Advanced Detachment of 6th Panzer Division will be back under division's control. <I snip other stuff here>
e) 129th Infantry Division will march from the area in and south of Ulyanovskoye through Ashurkovo and reach Kalinin by way of Nesterovo, Grishino, Gnilitsy, Negotino, so that it can take over the defense of Kalinin from 36th Motorized Division by 21.10 0600 so that division is available for further use. A strong Advance Detachment is to be started on the march towards Kalinin right now and upon arrival will come under 36th Motorized Division.
<Snip>
6.) Artillery
a) II Bn/59th Artillery Regiment is relieved from control of 1st Panzer Division at Staritsa and will come under 30th Artillery Command.
b) 3rd Battery/611th Artillery Regiment will return to control of its parent battalion at the same time II/59th Artillery Regiment changes control.
c) 620th Artillery Battalion will remain with 1st Panzer Division for long range fire in direct support as the Corps Command requires.
d) 665th Assault Gun Battery after refueling in Pogoreloye Gorodische will move by way of Ulyanovskoye, Lotoshino and the area near Negotino. Battery commander will report to the Combat HQ of 36th Motorized Division when he arrives. Report to the Corps HQ when the battery arrives in Negotino.
So here we have a fairly experience German CO - at a similar level to that of a Soviet Army - getting quite detailed when it comes to specify routes, artillery units attachments and tweaking force composition down to the Bn level in some cases. Note how it delegates to Division CO's how to achieve their objectives, yet provides quite precise constraints on how those objectives need to be pursued and accomplished.
It's quite easy to imagine that these orders at the Division HQ's generate also quite specific orders mentioning routes, force composition and artillery missions. Comparing this with Vatutin's (Reinhardt opponent) will surely be extremely interesting [:)]
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Wed Mar 20, 2013 11:51 pm
by wodin
Bletchly very odd.. In my hands is my Helion Company book they send me every six months which came today..and the page I'm looking at has that very book and description etc.
I've put a few books into my Amazon wishlist after my quick look through the catalog...
http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Stalingrad-Cauldron-Encirclement-Destruction/dp/0700619011/ref=wl_it_dp_o_pC_nS_nC?ie=UTF8&colid=2VYVCXQRXDQX1&coliid=I92Q3BWXXXTTI
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Mussolinis-Death-March-Eyewitness-Accounts/dp/0700619089/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1363829895&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Operation-Typhoon-Hitlers-Moscow-October/dp/1107035120/ref=pd_sim_b_2
Also listed is The Combat history of the 10th Panzer Division. However I can't find it on Amazon and in the catalog it says very limited print.
Also Armored Bears Vol 1 and Vol 2 look interesting as it's the first major treatment in English on the 3rd Panzer.
The novel The Red Horse and the book Few returned both by E Corti (Italian East front veteran) really got me interested in the Italians on the eastern front and the ordeal they went through.
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:55 am
by BletchleyGeek
ORIGINAL: wodin
Bletchly very odd.. In my hands is my Helion Company book they send me every six months which came today..and the page I'm looking at has that very book and description etc.
Hmmm, yeah, that's odd. This is the publisher info:
PEN & SWORD BOOKS LIMITED
47 Church Street, Barnsley, South Yorkshire, S70 2AS, England
that happens to be quite close to where you are (I'm assuming you're a Mancunian or a closely related species [;)]).
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 12:57 am
by BletchleyGeek
That one is also on my wishlist
About Stalingrad, I got along Radey's Glantz's second volume on his Stalingrad trilogy (which is a far cry from his other books in terms of readability).
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:03 am
by BletchleyGeek
ORIGINAL: wodin
The novel The Red Horse and the book Few returned both by E Corti (Italian East front veteran) really got me interested in the Italians on the eastern front and the ordeal they went through.
One of my favorite mum's movies is this classic drama by Vittorio de Sica
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunflower_(1970_film)
Not about the ordeal itself, lots of drama, yet interesting in its own way. There are a couple of similar stories about Spaniards in the Blue Division "going Russian" (which feeded its ranks from a variety of sources, including Republican POWs from the Spanish Civil War).
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:28 am
by wodin
Yeah Helion mag..which comes in at 180 pages so like a book in itself has all the Pen and Sword books listed. Great publisher Pen and Sword.
In Liverpool mate.
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
ORIGINAL: wodin
Bletchly very odd.. In my hands is my Helion Company book they send me every six months which came today..and the page I'm looking at has that very book and description etc.
Hmmm, yeah, that's odd. This is the publisher info:
PEN & SWORD BOOKS LIMITED
47 Church Street, Barnsley, South Yorkshire, S70 2AS, England
that happens to be quite close to where you are (I'm assuming you're a Mancunian or a closely related species [;)]).
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 1:31 am
by wodin
Only have the first Vol..I will get the second at some point. However I think Jason D Marks books can't be beaten (really want his Cholm book and his nest release following a Pioneer Battalion through the war) and I find Glantz a touch dry and difficult to take it all in.
ORIGINAL: Bletchley_Geek
That one is also on my wishlist
About Stalingrad, I got along Radey's Glantz's second volume on his Stalingrad trilogy (which is a far cry from his other books in terms of readability).
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 2:16 am
by BletchleyGeek
ORIGINAL: wodin
Yeah Helion mag..which comes in at 180 pages so like a book in itself has all the Pen and Sword books listed. Great publisher Pen and Sword.
In Liverpool mate.
Sorry! [:)]
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:18 am
by Arjuna
I met Jack Radey in the late 1980s. His Korsun Pocket game I played ad nasium back then. He was and I suspect still is a real card.
RE: Assaulting
Posted: Thu Mar 21, 2013 3:29 am
by BletchleyGeek
ORIGINAL: Arjuna
I met Jack Radey in the late 1980s. His Korsun Pocket game I played ad nasium back then.
That's quite a connection [X(]
ORIGINAL: Arjuna
He was and I suspect still is a real card.
Yet another Australian vernacular I learnt this week. Yesterday I learnt about furphies [:)]