Matrix Games Forums

Original: wif_o_matic
Question relating to the original topic:

Situation:
- France is vichied and controls N Africa including Morocco
- CW DoWs Vichy, calls a combined and invades Casablanca with a div
- there is no supply line from Casablanca to a city in Metro Vichy
- there is a Moroccan territorial in Rabat

I calculate the notional as +1 (notional), +1 (city), -1 (surprise), -1 (no basic supply line of any length to Vichy)
For a total of 0, for an automatic successful invasion.

- however a friend argued that the hex was Moroccan and was in supply from Rabat which would equal a notional of 1.

What say you people? Is Casablanca a Vichy hex or is it a Moroccan minor hex? And therefore is it a notional 0 or 1?

Cheers,
Ben

2.5 Control
Control of a hex changes when:
• an enemy land unit (except for partisans ~ see 13.1, and supply units ~ see 22.4.10) enters it (the major power entering with the most factors if more than one); or
• an island, territory, minor country or major power is conquered (see 13.7.1); or
• France is declared Vichy (see 17.); or
• it is a communist Chinese-controlled city entered by a nationalist Chinese land unit or vice versa; or
• during the liberation step you return control to the original owner (see 13.7.5, reversion).

Each hex defends against an invasion with a notional land unit, in addition to any actual land unit in the hex. The notional unit is the same nationality as any major power or minor country with a real unit in the hex (owner’s choice if more than one). If there are no real units, it is the same nationality as the major power or minor country that controls the hex.

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

As usual you quote several rules (other than 17.2) that have nothing to do with what the original question is asking and then draw an incorrect conclusion.

The pertinent rules are:

From 2.5: "Note that even though major powers may control minor countries (see 9.8 & 13.7.1), it is the minors themselves that control hexes in that minor."

From 17.2: "Otherwise, it remains controlled by Vichy France:" Meaning it (Morocco) is a minor aligned to Vichy because of the word "remains" (Morocco was a minor aligned to France, prior to Vichyfication.)

From11.14 - the rule on Notionals quoted above.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Or, if you would, please explain to me when a notational unit outside of Vichy France is Vichy French.

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Or, if you would, please explain to me when a notational unit outside of Vichy France is Vichy French.

That's easy. If it is in a Vichy French hex, not part of a Vichy France aligned minor country. That could be for example a minor conquered by (Vichy) France or a Vichy French controlled territory.

17.1 Creation
Occupied France is a conquered major power home country controlled by the Axis major power that installed the Vichy government. Control of occupied France is as per 13.7.1 Conquest except that all hexes controlled by French units become controlled by the Axis major power installing the Vichy government.

Complete conquest

Each hex it controls in a territory or home country controlled by another major power or minor country reverts to the control of that other major power or minor country.

ORIGINAL: Jimm

Can you EVER not have the last word, Extraneous?

ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

ORIGINAL: Centuur

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Or, if you would, please explain to me when a notational unit outside of Vichy France is Vichy French.

That's easy. If it is in a Vichy French hex, not part of a Vichy France aligned minor country. That could be for example a minor conquered by (Vichy) France or a Vichy French controlled territory.

If this all makes your head spin, then won't you be glad that MWIF will figure it all out for you?[:D]

19. Minor countries
The world is divided into several types of political entity. At the top of the heap is the major power—independent and powerful. Then there are minor countries—still independent but not in the same military league as a major power. In World in Flames, every major power home country, and every minor country, has a capital city.

In previous years, most major powers valued their importance by how many other territories, sometimes called “colonies”, they controlled. We don’t have a special status for colonies—they are either a minor country aligned with, or conquered by, a major power or simply hexes controlled by a major power.

We represent the independence of true minor countries by making them neutral until they enter the war. They enter the war when someone declares war on them or when they otherwise align themselves with a major power. In either case, for game purposes you will select a major power to run their affairs.

The scenario information (see 24. Scenario Information) will list which minor countries start the game conquered or aligned.

24. Scenario Information
Campaign rules
“War status” tells you who is at war with whom. All minor countries in the game, not “controlled” by a major power, are neutral.

“Control” shows who owns what at the start of the campaign.

24.2.1 Barbarossa ~ “One Kick...”: May/Jun 1941~Jan/Feb 1942
War status: Germany must declare war on the USSR on its first impulse.

24.2.2 Guadalcanal ~ The tide turns: May/Jun 1942 ~ Jan/Feb 1943
War status: The Commonwealth, Free France and the USA are at war with Japan.

24.3.1 Fascist Tide ~ The war in Europe: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ May/Jun 1945
War status: The USSR and Germany have a neutrality pact made in 1939. See 9.3 for first impulse compulsory declarations of war. The US is at war with Japan from the first Axis impulse of Nov/Dec 1941.

24.3.2 Day of Infamy ~ The War in the Pacific: Nov/Dec 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: China and Japan are at war. The USSR and Japan have a neutrality pact made in 1941. The Commonwealth, the USSR and Free France are active major powers.

24.4.1 Missed the Bus ~ The end of the beginning: Jul/Aug 1940 - Jul/Aug 1945
War status: Vichy France, the USSR and the USA are neutral. China and Japan are at war with each other. The Commonwealth and France are at war with Germany and Italy.

24.4.2 Lebensraum ~ Germany moves east: May/Jun 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: The USA and the USSR are neutral. China and Japan are at war with each other. The Commonwealth and Free France are at war with Germany and Italy. Vichy France is at war with (but not hostile to) the Commonwealth and Free France.

24.4.3 Waking giant ~ The USA enters the war: Nov/Dec 1941 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: The USA is neutral. China and Japan are at war with each other. The Commonwealth, France and the USSR are at war with Germany and Italy. Vichy France is at war with (but not hostile to) the Commonwealth and Free France.

24.4.4 Brute force ~ The Allies hit back: May/Jun 1942~Jul/Aug 1945
War status: The Commonwealth, the USA, China and Free France are at war with Japan. The Commonwealth, the USA, the USSR and Free France are at war with Germany and Italy. Vichy France is at war with (but not hostile to) the Commonwealth and Free France.

24.4.5 Darkness before the dawn ~ The beginning of the end: Jul/Aug 1943 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: The Commonwealth, the USA, China and Free France are at war with Japan. The Commonwealth, the USA, the USSR and Free France are at war with Germany and Italy.

24.4.6 Decline and fall ~ The Allied ascendancy: May/Jun 1944 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: The Commonwealth, Free France, the USA and China are at war with Japan. The Commonwealth, the USA, the USSR and Free France are at war with Germany and Italy.

24.4.7 The Global war: Sep/Oct 1939 ~ Jul/Aug 1945
War status: All major powers are neutral except China and Japan who are at war with each other. See 9.3 for first impulse compulsory declarations of war.

29. 1936~1945 World Order of battle © 2003 Australian Design Group Countersheets 1-6 & 24 (WiF Classic)
Major Power & minor country partisans
Minor Countries
Afghanistan, Argentina, Austria *, Belgium, Bolivia, Brazil, Bulgaria, C. America, Chile, Colombia, Czechoslovakia *, Denmark, Equador, Ethiopia *, Finland, Greece, Hungary, Iraq, Ireland, Mexico, Netherlands, Norway, Paraguay, Persia, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Rumania, Siam, Spain (Nat), Spain (Rep) *, Sweden, Switzerland, Turkey, Uruguay, Venezuela, and Yugoslavia.

If the Vichy French territorial in Rabat is from Morroco it would be able to use Rabat as a supply source. If it is not from Morocco it could not.

The difference is between minor countries (which must trace supply to a primary source) and true minor countries (which can trace supply to its capitol).

True minor countries must be DoW'ed independently not brought into the war because the home country is DoW'ed.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
[:-] I was wrong

ORIGINAL: paulderynck

ORIGINAL: Extraneous
[:-] I was wrong

Yes, and remain so.

Here's what matters for the original query:

Is the hex in a minor country? - yes
Is the minor country aligned or conquered? - aligned
Is the hex empty? -yes
What nationality is the hex? - Moroccan
Can the hex trace a supply path of any distance? -yes

BTW, Territorials are not Vichy French units, they are units of minor countries that are aligned to Vichy.

17.5 Combat with Vichy
If Vichy French land units are involved in a land combat, or are overrun, solely by units controlled by an Allied major power they are not hostile to, they may defect before combat.

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.

19. Minor countries
We represent the independence of true minor countries by making them neutral until they enter the war. They enter the war when someone declares war on them or when they otherwise align themselves with a major power. In either case, for game purposes you will select a major power to run their affairs.

The scenario information (see 24. Scenario Information) will list which minor countries start the game conquered or aligned.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

Then expain to me how this works.

17.5 Combat with Vichy
If Vichy French land units are involved in a land combat, or are overrun, solely by units controlled by an Allied major power they are not hostile to, they may defect before combat.

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.

And explain the definition of minor countries.

19. Minor countries
We represent the independence of true minor countries by making them neutral until they enter the war. They enter the war when someone declares war on them or when they otherwise align themselves with a major power. In either case, for game purposes you will select a major power to run their affairs.

The scenario information (see 24. Scenario Information) will list which minor countries start the game conquered or aligned.

1) Morroco is not listed in 24. Scenario Information as one of the minor countries.

2) No one declared war on Morocco they declared war on Vichy France.

17.3 Units

French units

All units controlled by France that are still in Vichy territory are now controlled by Vichy. All other French controlled units are Free French.

ORIGINAL: Extraneous

World in Flames Yahoo group RAW Vichy and TERR #105820 January 2010 sites this rule.

17.3 Units

French units

All units controlled by France that are still in Vichy territory are now controlled by Vichy. All other French controlled units are Free French.

Roll a die immediately before land combat or the overrun for each Vichy unit (including notional units) involved. On a 4 or less, the Vichy unit is destroyed prior to combat resolution. If no Axis land units remain, an (attacking) Allied major power can advance after combat as if it were a ‘B’ result. Allied land units stay face-up. Shore bombarding ships and ground supporting bombers still turn face-down. If it’s an overrun, you just pay the normal terrain cost, not double.