Matrix Games Forums

Hi spence, witpqs. I am listening. Understand what irl brings to the table, but have to figure out how to model it with a program that lives in abstraction space. Gotta remember this is game space, not irl space. They do not coincide. What happens in one is irrelevant to the other.

There’s two purposes for roads in the game; modify movement rates and modify supply costs. Supply costs, in turn, have two impacts; modify base-to-base or base-to-unit flow rate by adjusting “path-based” consumption and modify a unit’s supply consumption during movement based on cost value. Unit supply has a double whammy because moving along “slower” roads means a unit will spend more time consuming at the higher rate. Just think about what happens to consumption when you move off-road.

What Babes is doing is exactly what you suggest; only the “how” is different because of the game engine’s limitations. The whole point of the exercise is “the farther you go, the less you get”. Look at the pic below; left is the stock map; right is what I sent John 3rd. The opportunities for cutting supply lines, establishing choke points, and generally limiting offensives to arterials are endless. There are off-road avenues, but they require more consumption and time and thus, more stockpiling, more preparation, and a good deal more thought. Japan might be feeling a bit more constricted, neh?

Effects both sides equally and don’t give a squat if transport eats gas, oats, or rice. But I think the Chinese game paradigm is well suited to those sorts of operations. What would happen to the Godzilla Death Star that trundles up the road crushing all in its path when Gen. Chi Ken Fat wanders out of the mountains and parks across its supply line?

Note to Francois: checked it and there’s no change to KMT accumulation amounts at KMT bases, neither is there reduction to units on the arterials; just a reduction to units “in the paddies” and consequent increase in consumption. Chinese gotta plan for ops, too.

This is phase 1 of lumpy gravy. Phase 2 is judicious constriction of the road network as a whole. This is an ongoing project and will be discussed in the Gnarly Roads thread. But it’s looking sweet so far.

Note to Francois: worked the magic to China/Burma interface and the new system only impacts KMT supply “minimally”, but it sure as heck intensifies operational requirements in the CBI. Woof!! Will get more explicit in the Gnarly Roads thread.

Ciao. JWE

Although it might not have started out as one of the primary motivators for this, I am looking forward to the effects in Burma. Current Babes + stacking limits + the various code changes (long ago) that introduced max supply draw have greatly changed the game in Burma, and this effort might bring it across the finish line (so to speak) of getting closer to the IRL goo of that area for supplying armies in WWII.

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Although it might not have started out as one of the primary motivators for this, I am looking forward to the effects in Burma. Current Babes + stacking limits + the various code changes (long ago) that introduced max supply draw have greatly changed the game in Burma, and this effort might bring it across the finish line (so to speak) of getting closer to the IRL goo of that area for supplying armies in WWII.

That's the hope, my friend.

J

Symon,

Isn't there a third reason for roads/railways:

to regulate the frequency of auto overland shipment of secondary industry feedstock from the primary industry sites.

Currently it is not a rare outcome to find that Chinese secondary industry does not operate at 100% efficiency as it stops production on certain days waiting for delivery of feedstock (usually fuel) from perimeter sites. One possible unintended consequence of your pruning could be that this condition is exacerbated.

Alfred

Something to think on, Alfred. Thank you. JWE

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Although it might not have started out as one of the primary motivators for this, I am looking forward to the effects in Burma. Current Babes + stacking limits + the various code changes (long ago) that introduced max supply draw have greatly changed the game in Burma, and this effort might bring it across the finish line (so to speak) of getting closer to the IRL goo of that area for supplying armies in WWII.

That's the hope, my friend.

J

John: How do we get Ramree Island into something much more realistic?

ORIGINAL: John 3rd

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: witpqs
Although it might not have started out as one of the primary motivators for this, I am looking forward to the effects in Burma. Current Babes + stacking limits + the various code changes (long ago) that introduced max supply draw have greatly changed the game in Burma, and this effort might bring it across the finish line (so to speak) of getting closer to the IRL goo of that area for supplying armies in WWII.

That's the hope, my friend.

J

John: How do we get Ramree Island into something much more realistic?

Mod the map art to include little crocodiles!

ORIGINAL: John 3rd
John: How do we get Ramree Island into something much more realistic?

Hi John,

Need a little info. What's wrong with Ramree Island? What do you want to do to it?

[ed] besides adding crocodiles [:D]

Ciao. John

John -

Downloaded from the Babes Site last night and took a close look. Really love the look and the concept - use (and defend) the main key highways and roads.

My sincere appreciation for the Babes Team's excellent work.

Mac

Can't wait till I get the chance to re-install this beasty and look at the changes implemented. Been away for quite a while.

To steal JIII's reply, it is possible to move from Ramree to the mainland, so it becomes a base to take and feed supply into Burma.

IRL Ramree was surrounded by a lot of mangrove and mud and the mainland was similar, the island was onky seperated from the mainland by these tidal swamps (map at https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=ramre ... =0CIUBELYD) BUT the Brits managed to land on Ramree and use it for an entry point into Burma. Is the role of Support/Naval Support to provide the copious number of small watercraft and labourers to make this possible. lus the arguement that the hex is a big place and includes the mainlaind adjaecent??
You could make it harder to develop but with the Engineers the Allies have it doesnt create too much of a problem.

ORIGINAL: JeffK

To steal JIII's reply, it is possible to move from Ramree to the mainland, so it becomes a base to take and feed supply into Burma.

IRL Ramree was surrounded by a lot of mangrove and mud and the mainland was similar, the island was onky seperated from the mainland by these tidal swamps (map at https://maps.google.com.au/maps?q=ramre ... =0CIUBELYD) BUT the Brits managed to land on Ramree and use it for an entry point into Burma. Is the role of Support/Naval Support to provide the copious number of small watercraft and labourers to make this possible. lus the arguement that the hex is a big place and includes the mainlaind adjaecent??
You could make it harder to develop but with the Engineers the Allies have it doesnt create too much of a problem.

Agreed. I think Ramree Island is fine as is. It provides entry but is certainly no Rangoon. The key (regarding Ramree) seems to be Prome. In Babes 28-C (started in December 2011, don't recall the version) Prome has no daily supply cap. Supply flows from Ramree but not in any form of super abundance. If a small daily supply cap were put on Prome that would probably reduce supply via Ramree to a trickle, be both unrealistic (as you cited) and a big change for the worse.

Adding crocodiles, on the other hand... [:D]

PS: I should add that I interpreted John III's query as meaning he thinks that Ramree allows too much supply to Burma.

ORIGINAL: witpqs
PS: I should add that I interpreted John III's query as meaning he thinks that Ramree allows too much supply to Burma.

I don't know why that would be so. Ramree is separated from the mainland by those blue hex-sides, and there are no roads. Can't see how supply can move. Will dig deeper. Maybe it's a wierd quasi-river thing; if so will try a blocking hex edge. After all, if it's a croc ridden swamp, nobody's gonna wanna be there, except maybe a Bn of Seabees from Florida [:D]

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: witpqs
PS: I should add that I interpreted John III's query as meaning he thinks that Ramree allows too much supply to Burma.

I don't know why that would be so. Ramree is separated from the mainland by those blue hex-sides, and there are no roads. Can't see how supply can move. Will dig deeper. Maybe it's a wierd quasi-river thing; if so will try a blocking hex edge. After all, if it's a croc ridden swamp, nobody's gonna wanna be there, except maybe a Bn of Seabees from Florida [:D]

There is a land-move hex side, which does act as a river. Not sure why you would want to block supply entirely, as Jeff pointed out it did move supply and troops IRL. What I am reporting is that supply moves in what I think is reasonable quantities, meaning not more than should move. If you block that hex side then Ramree would not be a possible entry as it was IRL. I think that would be bad. In other words I disagree with what I think John III was asking for, although I guess we need him to clarify his statement.

Plenty of Florida boys must have served in WWII. In-game they probably act as guides for the engineering units!

Of course I prefer the Arizona Gators we have around here. They are smaller but they're poisonous.

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: witpqs
PS: I should add that I interpreted John III's query as meaning he thinks that Ramree allows too much supply to Burma.

I don't know why that would be so. Ramree is separated from the mainland by those blue hex-sides, and there are no roads. Can't see how supply can move. Will dig deeper. Maybe it's a wierd quasi-river thing; if so will try a blocking hex edge. After all, if it's a croc ridden swamp, nobody's gonna wanna be there, except maybe a Bn of Seabees from Florida [:D]

Symon,

Have a read of this thread, in particular the two posts from Andy Mac (at #28 and #35).

Basically Andy failed to subject Ramree Island to the supply caps for the monsoon season. Thus Ramree can become a major supply depot and in turn, with the abundance of local supply, export it to nearby friendly bases.

Alfred

Edit: oops forgot to add the link tm.asp?m=3334893&mpage=1&key=ramree%2Cisland&#3336315

ORIGINAL: witpqs
There is a land-move hex side, which does act as a river. Not sure why you would want to block supply entirely, as Jeff pointed out it did move supply and troops IRL. What I am reporting is that supply moves in what I think is reasonable quantities, meaning not more than should move. If you block that hex side then Ramree would not be a possible entry as it was IRL. I think that would be bad. In other words I disagree with what I think John III was asking for, although I guess we need him to clarify his statement.

Ok, let's let John 3d say what's up.

Plenty of Florida boys must have served in WWII. In-game they probably act as guides for the engineering units!.

Oh, dude ... [8D]

Of course I prefer the Arizona Gators we have around here. They are smaller but they're poisonous.

What !!?? Them little weenies?? Dude ..

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: witpqs
PS: I should add that I interpreted John III's query as meaning he thinks that Ramree allows too much supply to Burma.

I don't know why that would be so. Ramree is separated from the mainland by those blue hex-sides, and there are no roads. Can't see how supply can move. Will dig deeper. Maybe it's a wierd quasi-river thing; if so will try a blocking hex edge. After all, if it's a croc ridden swamp, nobody's gonna wanna be there, except maybe a Bn of Seabees from Florida [:D]

Symon,

Have a read of this thread, in particular the two posts from Andy Mac (at #28 and #35).

Basically Andy failed to subject Ramree Island to the supply caps for the monsoon season. Thus Ramree can become a major supply depot and in turn, with the abundance of local supply, export it to nearby friendly bases.

Alfred

Edit: oops forgot to add the link tm.asp?m=3334893&mpage=1&key=ramree%2Cisland?

I remember that now and I put it into the design doc for my mod.

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Alfred

ORIGINAL: Symon

I don't know why that would be so. Ramree is separated from the mainland by those blue hex-sides, and there are no roads. Can't see how supply can move. Will dig deeper. Maybe it's a wierd quasi-river thing; if so will try a blocking hex edge. After all, if it's a croc ridden swamp, nobody's gonna wanna be there, except maybe a Bn of Seabees from Florida [:D]

Symon,

Have a read of this thread, in particular the two posts from Andy Mac (at #28 and #35).

Basically Andy failed to subject Ramree Island to the supply caps for the monsoon season. Thus Ramree can become a major supply depot and in turn, with the abundance of local supply, export it to nearby friendly bases.

Alfred

Edit: oops forgot to add the link tm.asp?m=3334893&mpage=1&key=ramree%2Cisland?

I remember that now and I put it into the design doc for my mod.

Gosh, aargh. Will look. No promises.

ORIGINAL: Symon
quote]ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

ORIGINAL: Alfred
[Edit: oops forgot to add the link tm.asp?m=3334893&mpage=1&key=ramree%2Cisland?

I remember that now and I put it into the design doc for my mod.

Gosh, aargh. Will look. No promises.[/quote]
Aw crap. seriously not interested in pathetic nonsense. It is what it is and as it it shall be, world without end, Amen.