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RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 4:38 pm
by Amoral
ORIGINAL: DanNC

ORIGINAL: Nemo121
The use of the atomic bombs was a DEESCALATION since it ENDED the war.
...
Next time you have an argument I suggest you try shooting the other person dead in an effort to "end" the argument and use your de-escalation defence. Be sure to let me know how that works out for you [:D]

Your comparison is not even remotely close.

To use deadly force to end an argument is asinine and illegal.

Did the use of the atomic bombs end the war? The answer is yes. That is a deescalation since the war ENDED. If the bombs had not been used, the invasion would almost certainly have happened, and the blood shed would have been far, far worse than what had been already been seen. The invasion would have been an escalation in the war since more people would have died. Millions would have died compared to the relative few at Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

Later,
Dan


Or the US could have negotiated a peace. Japan wanted to surrender conditionally. Don't pretend there were only two options.

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 5:44 pm
by geofflambert
ORIGINAL: Lecivius


I get really fused with people trying to fight a "clean" war.

Agreed, but we have been getting pretty good at that since Nam, and it looks like we're not done reducing collateral damage. People go whacko over the most minor incidental atrocity these days. I think we're doing much better than they were during the Napoleonic wars, which was another period of "clean" warfare, relatively.

Incidentally, it appears that US soldier who went out of control in that Afghan village was being medicated by the military, as many of our soldiers in the fight have been, and as a result he doesn't seem to remember any of it. It's like being on Amb**n or something. I forget what the purpose of the med was, but it appears they're backing off of it's use.

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 7:53 pm
by Nemo121
geofflambert,

The psychotropic medicines most commonly used by the US Army in warzones seem to be ( according the literature investigating their impact on soldiers ):
1. Amphetamines ( can cause psychosis, hallucination, decision-making issues and appear to predispose to inappropriate emotional processing of events leading to PTSD. There are also effects on the processing of memory - which isn't like a recording, as most people think it is ).

2. Hypnotics and benzodiazepines ( to cause sleep/help come down from amphetamines etc - again these can cause derealisation/depersonalisation, difficulties with emotional processing and the processing of memories not to mention disturbed sleep states etc. One of the commonly prescribed ones is even a date rape drug ( the primary characteristic of these drugs is the inducement of fugue-like states with disturbance in the processing and laying down of memories ).

3. Anti-depressants: Used for their anxiolytic ( anti-anxiety ) and anti-depressant effects. Also, from what I can see, being used to boost resilience to stressors. Most common ones used are Selective Serotonin Inhibitors such as Fluoxetine, Sertraline, Escitalopram. The first two seem to predominate.

4. Codeine-containing medications which, as ever, can be abused, engender addiction and all of the processing, memory and decision-making issues which come with addiction.


Overall it is no wonder the suicide rates and familial ( and stranger ) homicide rates among recently returned soldiers have skyrocketed since 2003/4 when multiple tour commitments really started to take a toll. Most of the side-effects and atrocities associated with these meds are, undoubtedly, buried within larger engagements and only come to the surface when the incident involves one or very few men and occurs outside of the context of a patrol ( where the presence of dead women and children cannot be explained away as easily as the presence of dead men of military age ).


Depending on the mix of meds you look at I've read medical reports which talk of approximately 25% of troops in-theatre ( that includes the REMFs etc ) being on some form of psychotropic medication. It seems reasonable that even accounting for increased emotional fragility of those who only signed up for the educational benefits and found themselves in Assistan or somewhere similar and their increased propensity to seek chemical tranquilisation that those at the sharp end of things have more then 25% of the troops there on meds.

I've treated several ex-soldiers from the US Army, Marines etc. Mostly from the pre-2005 deployments including several who were heavily involved in Fallujah and they all reported extremely high rates of the doling out of multiple psychotropics meds on an almost no-questions asked basis with troops self-selecting amongst multiple medications based on the psychological effect they wished ( e.g. choosing between more hypnotics to sleep or benzos to relax or codeine when they wanted to get a bit of a buzz etc ). It was all very much in keeping with the sorts of poor decision-making and excess ( execution of enemy wounded etc ) which was reported at the time (most of these meds cause disinhibition, decreased adherence to rules/laws, can cause emotional states where people feel rules don't apply to them and certainly would impinge empathy and on the functional working of a military chain of command ) and also very much laid the groundwork for massive psychological problems when these guys tried to re-integrate into normal life.



DanNC,
I suggest you look up de-escalation in the dictionary. The definitions all discuss de-escalation as a means of avoiding an increase in the quantity or quality of a commitment/violence etc. They do NOT tie the ending of a state of commitment ( to a war, to a doctrine, to supporting a company or team etc ) to the notion of de-escalation.

I know you'll probably want to argue that you're right irrespective of the objective reality of the hermeneutics and etymology of the word de-escalation but, really, the hermeneutics of the situation are irrefutable.

As you can see the root of "to escalate" is "escalade" which not only has a socially hermeneutic meaning of to increase but actually has its physical root in the use of ladders to "scale" a defensive wall. That takes us back to the 16th Century. We can go back to Roman times and see that the Italian root is "scalate" - to scale, to climb and the Latin root is "scandere". There are Hebrew roots also but I don't think there's much point going into that.

Basically escalate has the socially hermeneutic connotation of "to increase" and "to climb". There is NO intimation that it is linked to the ending of the action or the ending of a state of conflict. Thus to de-escalate has no inherent linkage to the ending of a state of being or motion, it, instead, refers to the direction of that motion. You may infer that meaning but socially you aren't a sufficiently large group of people to effect a shift in the hermeneutics of the word.

I don't normally bother going into that level of detail but, really, to say dropping an atomic bomb is a de-escalation is so wrong-headed that it deserves to be fully challenged. Nothing personal.


RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:46 pm
by geofflambert
Found it. It is an anti-malarial drug. (I'm allergic to quinine, by the way). Here's a report on it.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/2 ... 78671.html


It doesn't have to be psychotropic for you to have a bad reaction to it, I'm sure only a small percentage will be affected, but how small? Nobody knows. But the rest of that stuff needs looking into as well.

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:48 pm
by Jorge_Stanbury


[/quote]

Or the US could have negotiated a peace. Japan wanted to surrender conditionally. Don't pretend there were only two options.
[/quote]


The Postdam declaration was the Allies' very generous offer to peace. An unconditional surrender, but to very specific and fair terms.

check
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potsdam_Declaration

Any peace that did not root, forever, Japanese militarist culture was not going to be acceptable.
The failures of the WW1 peace treaties were too close to memory of all Allied war leaders to accept the kind of surrender Japan would had liked

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 9:48 pm
by Terminus
And then the thread went off the rails... The end.

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Fri Aug 09, 2013 11:32 pm
by bradfordkay
It appears to me that the Japanese have learned one major lesson from WW2 and that is as an island nation, ASW is the primary mission for their fleet. The Izumo is a nice addition...

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 1:31 pm
by Jorge_Stanbury
As long as Japan is under the protection of the USN; it won't make sense to build full carriers; ASW platforms are better for the job of protecting Japan from the 2 main threats: China and N Korea.

That said, building, maintaining and operating those ships will also let them learn valuable lessons in case the existing political scenario change in a near future

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 10:43 pm
by Capt Hornblower
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Yep, we seemed to have no problem with Germany re-arming. I doubt that there is a Western power that would be interested in interfering with Japanese defense concerns. Peace terms or not. Personally, I think that Japan's limited military spending has helped them economically over the intervening years. Costs a lost of GDP to have a large military.

...as the USSR found, to its detriment.

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Sat Aug 10, 2013 11:40 pm
by geofflambert
ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Yep, we seemed to have no problem with Germany re-arming. I doubt that there is a Western power that would be interested in interfering with Japanese defense concerns. Peace terms or not. Personally, I think that Japan's limited military spending has helped them economically over the intervening years. Costs a lost of GDP to have a large military.

...as the USSR found, to its detriment.

I saw today in the paper that Japan's national debt has reached one quadrillion yen. I think they said something about how many times a stack of that many yen would reach the moon and back, and back etc. If their strategy of not having a defense was to allow them to develop a stronger economy, I guess that didn't work out so well. The article I was reading also said that the US debt was bigger, but a much smaller percentage of the GDP. Actually, they've been building their defense establishment for quite some time now. Their fleet of destroyers is substantial as well as their sub-surface arm.

To be blunt, their main problem is their racist culture that makes it so difficult for them to attract and sustain immigration. Since their reproduction rate is and has been negative for some time now, they are doomed if they don't fix that. This can serve as a warning to the US as well, as we're experiencing a level of xenophobia that's nearly unprecedented, and our country was built on immigration and yet we seem to be insistent on cutting our own throats. Don't like immigrants? Make more babies. We're still in positive territory on replacement reproduction, but just barely and the trend is definitely headed into negative territory. Most of Europe is in the same spot and has been for quite a while, and their solution has been letting in anyone who wants to come (with the notable exception of the UK), and not being selective as far as the educational value of the immigrants goes, as well as turning a blind eye to cultures which do not accept democracy and in fact reject it utterly.

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 3:40 am
by warspite1
ORIGINAL: geofflambert
ORIGINAL: Capt Hornblower
ORIGINAL: crsutton
Yep, we seemed to have no problem with Germany re-arming. I doubt that there is a Western power that would be interested in interfering with Japanese defense concerns. Peace terms or not. Personally, I think that Japan's limited military spending has helped them economically over the intervening years. Costs a lost of GDP to have a large military.

...as the USSR found, to its detriment.

I saw today in the paper that Japan's national debt has reached one quadrillion yen. I think they said something about how many times a stack of that many yen would reach the moon and back, and back etc. If their strategy of not having a defense was to allow them to develop a stronger economy, I guess that didn't work out so well. The article I was reading also said that the US debt was bigger, but a much smaller percentage of the GDP. Actually, they've been building their defense establishment for quite some time now. Their fleet of destroyers is substantial as well as their sub-surface arm.

To be blunt, their main problem is their racist culture that makes it so difficult for them to attract and sustain immigration. Since their reproduction rate is and has been negative for some time now, they are doomed if they don't fix that. This can serve as a warning to the US as well, as we're experiencing a level of xenophobia that's nearly unprecedented, and our country was built on immigration and yet we seem to be insistent on cutting our own throats. Don't like immigrants? Make more babies. We're still in positive territory on replacement reproduction, but just barely and the trend is definitely headed into negative territory. Most of Europe is in the same spot and has been for quite a while, and their solution has been letting in anyone who wants to come (with the notable exception of the UK), and not being selective as far as the educational value of the immigrants goes, as well as turning a blind eye to cultures which do not accept democracy and in fact reject it utterly.
warspite1

Apologies if I have I misunderstood what you wrote, but are you suggesting the UK is tougher on immigration than the rest of Europe? If you are then I can confirm you are about as wrong as its possible to be.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... dmits.html

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 11:34 am
by Chickenboy
On a happy, and equally non-sequitor note as posted above, I am pleased to hear that UK Birth rate has risen to a 40-year high again. Congrats Dixie and Warspite1, you cheeky little devils. Keeping the British end up what what...[;)]

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:32 pm
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

On a happy, and equally non-sequitor note as posted above, I am pleased to hear that UK Birth rate has risen to a 40-year high again. Congrats Dixie and Warspite1, you cheeky little devils. Keeping the British end up what what...[;)]

I hear the WITP:AE Manual makes a great stocking stuffer for the wee ones.

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:38 pm
by geofflambert
ORIGINAL: warspite1



Apologies if I have I misunderstood what you wrote, but are you suggesting the UK is tougher on immigration than the rest of Europe? If you are then I can confirm you are about as wrong as its possible to be.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... dmits.html


I've seen stories about immigrants in France trying to get into the UK any which way but mostly failing. They did get into France first, though. France isn't surrounded by a moat, of course.

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:40 pm
by Terminus
Wow, how this thread keeps on its original topic...[8|]

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 2:51 am
by warspite1
ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: warspite1



Apologies if I have I misunderstood what you wrote, but are you suggesting the UK is tougher on immigration than the rest of Europe? If you are then I can confirm you are about as wrong as its possible to be.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/ ... dmits.html


I've seen stories about immigrants in France trying to get into the UK any which way but mostly failing. They did get into France first, though. France isn't surrounded by a moat, of course.
warspite1

Believe me the English Channel is no defence when our weak governments are so incompetent/devious.

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 1:26 pm
by Mobeer
ORIGINAL: fodder
From the pics it looks like it has only one elevator, shouldn't there be at least two?

Two I think:
- deck edge elevator to the left shot in the first picture (shown down)
- centre line elevator just in front of the superstructure (raised in first picture)

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 3:14 pm
by Bo Rearguard
Another addition to the carrier building club. India just launched it's first home built carrier--the Vikrant.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-23674627

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:21 pm
by Jorge_Stanbury
ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard

Another addition to the carrier building club. India just launched it's first home built carrier--the Vikrant.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-23674627


In 2010, the World Bank reported that 32.7% of the total Indian people fall below the international poverty line of US$ 1.25 per day (PPP) while 68.7% live on less than US$ 2 per day... but of course, they need a fleet of expensive carriers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India

RE: Semi OT: New Izumo is launched...

Posted: Mon Aug 12, 2013 5:24 pm
by warspite1
ORIGINAL: Jorge_Stanbury

ORIGINAL: Bo Rearguard

Another addition to the carrier building club. India just launched it's first home built carrier--the Vikrant.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-23674627


In 2010, the World Bank reported that 32.7% of the total Indian people fall below the international poverty line of US$ 1.25 per day (PPP) while 68.7% live on less than US$ 2 per day... but of course, they need a fleet of expensive carriers

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poverty_in_India
warspite1

They also have a space program.....