Drums of War - No BigBaba

[terje439]

Turn 10

Overall
One of our beachheads are sent packing back to the western side of the river, but the other two are enlarged, although not by much. I am down to using only deliberate attacks now, and that severely limits the amount of attacks I am able to launch. Furthermore I am attacking with the Fins and Rumanians, and they account for some of our held results this turn. BB abandoned the western part of Kiev, so we took that one as a freebie this turn. Another pleasant surprise was that we discovered an infantry division hiding in the Pripjet. It is now dead, and we gain some more Ivans that are happy to work for us.
7 USSR attacks resulted in 3 helds and 4 retreats, while our 31 attacks gave 13 helds, 16 retreats, 1 rout and 1 surrender.

Casualties
USSR : 73.000 troops, 832 guns, 507 AFVs, 286 AC.
Axis : 43.000 troops, 388 guns, 231 AFVs, 144 AC.

USSR units in pockets at the start of the turn
1.

USSR units in pockets at the end of the turn
2.

USSR units destroyed
1 Infantry Division, 2 PVO AA Regiments.

German Pools
Manpower : 601
Vehicles : 167.013
Armaments : 96.960
Hiwi : 58.021

[loki100]

does look like you are being forced down some definite channels at the moment. Do you think you can manage a deep breakout, even if just in the south?

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: loki100

does look like you are being forced down some definite channels at the moment. Do you think you can manage a deep breakout, even if just in the south?

Short answer to that one - Nope [:D]


Terje

[Disgruntled Veteran]

ORIGINAL: terje439

I never (as Walloc points out) have been able to do a perfect start, and I never will. I swear that those guys that do those superior openings must have 60MP in their tanks and not 50 [:D]

Terje

Without the pre planned heavy handed opening you are bound to fall way behind. I'd just simply hack out T1 over and over again against the AI until I achieved a rock solid opening. I had other people's AAR's on a mini screen and worked it out to a science. The T1 is over powered but unless you pull it off your going to be behind all game.

Or just play another scenario like Smoking Dave is trying.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Walloc

I know Terje and there is a reason i dont play it any more. No, i wouldnt say it hasnt been made worse per say with patches but just like on the german side ppl have found ways to make full use of systems and it has permiated so has ppl on the russian side learned and it has permiated. Some saw this long ways off and its now reality. Problems on one side just doesnt make problems of the other side right.
So when ever u point out issue related to one side u an "fan boy" funny that im not a german fan boy too as i have pointed through out the years out plenty a issues that favorer the soviets too. Just seem u get labelled if u point out stuff on one side not as much if u point out stuff on the other side cuz then its justified as the germans "every thing goes".

(Un)fortunatly the maximizing 1941 as germans has never been a thing that permiated too u for better or worse,

Rasmus

Not to hijack this thread but what exactly is the exploit being used here? I have been away from the game for some time and don't seem to be benefitting from it in my latest game...not that I would use exploits but just want to understand the issue a bit better.

[hfarrish]

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

ORIGINAL: terje439

I never (as Walloc points out) have been able to do a perfect start, and I never will. I swear that those guys that do those superior openings must have 60MP in their tanks and not 50 [:D]

Terje

Without the pre planned heavy handed opening you are bound to fall way behind. I'd just simply hack out T1 over and over again against the AI until I achieved a rock solid opening. I had other people's AAR's on a mini screen and worked it out to a science. The T1 is over powered but unless you pull it off your going to be behind all game.

Or just play another scenario like Smoking Dave is trying.

I guess I'm just curious if the issue in this game is the poor (no offense, I suck at them too) opening or a new Soviet "exploit" to generate huge adjusted CV values. It looks like the former to me...poor openings rapidly snowball, particularly if the German isn't using every tool at their disposal and there are no rules to stop the Sovs from building up large forces in the rear of the actual line of combat.

[Ketza]

For the Soviets its not really an exploit to have some "super" armies early on.

You turn off replacements to all units.

You pick an army and give it a decent leader and attach enough units to conform with the command structure.

You add a half dozen SUs.

You turn on replacments for just a few armies such as this each turn. This funnels the power to where its needed most.

Next thing you know you can have a few very nasty roadblacks for the Panzers such as we see here. Launching small offensives with these armies are almost guaranteed with the 1-1 rule.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

ORIGINAL: terje439

I never (as Walloc points out) have been able to do a perfect start, and I never will. I swear that those guys that do those superior openings must have 60MP in their tanks and not 50 [:D]

Terje

Without the pre planned heavy handed opening you are bound to fall way behind. I'd just simply hack out T1 over and over again against the AI until I achieved a rock solid opening. I had other people's AAR's on a mini screen and worked it out to a science. The T1 is over powered but unless you pull it off your going to be behind all game.

Or just play another scenario like Smoking Dave is trying.

Oh, trust me, I have studied AARs, I have attacked the AI time and again, yet I ALWAYS end up with that one crucial held result that denies me the MP to properly seal the Lvov pocket on T1 it seems.
But the REAL problem imo, is that the game is now in such a shape that if you as the Axis do not do a PERFECT T1, T2, T3 and T4, you lose the game.


Terje

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

ORIGINAL: Walloc

I know Terje and there is a reason i dont play it any more. No, i wouldnt say it hasnt been made worse per say with patches but just like on the german side ppl have found ways to make full use of systems and it has permiated so has ppl on the russian side learned and it has permiated. Some saw this long ways off and its now reality. Problems on one side just doesnt make problems of the other side right.
So when ever u point out issue related to one side u an "fan boy" funny that im not a german fan boy too as i have pointed through out the years out plenty a issues that favorer the soviets too. Just seem u get labelled if u point out stuff on one side not as much if u point out stuff on the other side cuz then its justified as the germans "every thing goes".

(Un)fortunatly the maximizing 1941 as germans has never been a thing that permiated too u for better or worse,

Rasmus

Not to hijack this thread but what exactly is the exploit being used here? I have been away from the game for some time and don't seem to be benefitting from it in my latest game...not that I would use exploits but just want to understand the issue a bit better.

No exploit, just the fact that the game now more or less forces the Axis to make those first 4 turns perfect, if not it is more or less a given USSR victory, since it is now rather easy to get high USSR CV in lvl 3 forts behind the major rivers.


Terje

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: hfarrish

ORIGINAL: Disgruntled Veteran

ORIGINAL: terje439

I never (as Walloc points out) have been able to do a perfect start, and I never will. I swear that those guys that do those superior openings must have 60MP in their tanks and not 50 [:D]

Terje

Without the pre planned heavy handed opening you are bound to fall way behind. I'd just simply hack out T1 over and over again against the AI until I achieved a rock solid opening. I had other people's AAR's on a mini screen and worked it out to a science. The T1 is over powered but unless you pull it off your going to be behind all game.

Or just play another scenario like Smoking Dave is trying.

I guess I'm just curious if the issue in this game is the poor (no offense, I suck at them too) opening or a new Soviet "exploit" to generate huge adjusted CV values. It looks like the former to me...poor openings rapidly snowball, particularly if the German isn't using every tool at their disposal and there are no rules to stop the Sovs from building up large forces in the rear of the actual line of combat.

No doubt the poor opening, and no offence taken. The problem however is that the game now demands a perfect opening from the Axis, if not, you end up losing the game because the USSR does not need more time than T5 to have dug in rather well behind the major rivers, stopping you dead in your tracks. This again means you will knock out fewer USSR troops, which means a bigger hit come blizzard, as well as a higher USSR OOB. From this, the Axis will (unless the USSR messes up) not recover.



Terje

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: Ketza

For the Soviets its not really an exploit to have some "super" armies early on.

You turn off replacements to all units.

You pick an army and give it a decent leader and attach enough units to conform with the command structure.

You add a half dozen SUs.

You turn on replacments for just a few armies such as this each turn. This funnels the power to where its needed most.

Next thing you know you can have a few very nasty roadblacks for the Panzers such as we see here. Launching small offensives with these armies are almost guaranteed with the 1-1 rule.

Yup, add the fact that the USSR digs in quicker than a bunch of moles, and you will halt the Axis advance unless the Axis has a perfect first 4-5 turns.
It seems to me that the game has been balanced according to what the "über"-players achieved, leaving people like me without a chance (I'ld rather bet on that famous snowball in Hell than me atm [;)])


Terje

[terje439]

Turn 11

Overall
We expand our beachheads somewhat, but with my usual good die rolls...well, it could have gone better.
It seems that HAD I gone all out for LG, this is the match where I would have taken it, but too late now...
4 USSR attacks gains a 100% success rate with 4 retreats, while our 21 attacks score 4 helds, 15 retreats, 1 rout and 1 surrender.

Casualties
USSR : 43.000 troops, 743 guns, 189 AFVs, 258 AC.
Axis : 45.000 troops, 450 guns, 227 AFVs, 141 AC.
Early in the game for the USSR to inflict more casualties on us than we on them...

USSR units in pockets at the start of the turn
2.

USSR units in pockets at the end of the turn
0.

USSR units destroyed
1 PVO AA Regiment, 1 Rifle Division, 1 Tank Division.

German Pools
Manpower : 40.223
Vehicles : 164.292
Armaments : 93.209
Hiwi : 59.463

[M60A3TTS]

Your basic USSR division digs in no quicker than the Axis, in fact I think it's the other way around. The key for the Soviet player in this case is to assign about 8 sapper regiments to an army to make good progress digging in. Even then, level 1 and 2 forts aren't hard to overcome. I'm running with 300+ sapper regiments in my games with Mehring and Dave in 1942 just to give myself a chance to get fortified in reasonable time.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: M60A3TTS

Your basic USSR division digs in no quicker than the Axis, in fact I think it's the other way around. The key for the Soviet player in this case is to assign about 8 sapper regiments to an army to make good progress digging in. Even then, level 1 and 2 forts aren't hard to overcome. I'm running with 300+ sapper regiments in my games with Mehring and Dave in 1942 just to give myself a chance to get fortified in reasonable time.

True, but they have a lot more sappers available to them it seems, and I also believe that the paras digs in quicker. That means that if you do not get off to a flying start as the Axis, you will encounter a fortified wall. Add in the die rolls I am getting in all my games, and you are stopped cold.
Hasty attacks? Never works past T1 for me (as a rule of thumb).


Terje

[terje439]

Just realized. I haven't played fixed weather in ages.
What turn do I get mud? What turn do I get Blizzard? If any of you know this from the top of your head, please share so I do not have to look it up [;)]
 
 
Terje

[SigUp]

10th October to 7th November, April (and every second turn from May to mid June) for mud, December to February for blizzard.

[terje439]

ORIGINAL: SigUp

10th October to 7th November, April (and every second turn from May to mid June) for mud, December to February for blizzard.

ty ty [&o]

Terje

[terje439]

Turn 12

Overall
We are finally across the rivers in force, but we get too many held results to be able to make a proper breakthrough anywhere. But for now we will keep pushing.
1 USSR attack resulted in a retreat, while our 33 attacks gave 16 helds(...), 16 retreats and 1 surrender. We also had to hunt down a partisan again this turn.

Casualties
USSR : 67.000 troops, 696 guns, 122 AFVs, ??? AC.
Axis : 38.000 troops, 356 guns, 133 AFVs, ??? AC.
I messed up with the AC losses as I forgot to drop supply, left the casualties report and dropped supply. That ofc had reset the losses when I got back to the report.

USSR units in pockets at the start of the turn
0.

USSR units in pockets at the end of the turn
0.

USSR units destroyed
None.

German Pools
Manpower : 1.082
Vehicles : 169.929
Armaments : 89.709
Hiwi : 61.908

Looking at CV adjustment for the battles
Numbers will be in the following format; attacking player (A/U), result (h,r,ro), Axis modifier%, USSR modifier%.
A, h, +25, +50
A, h, +30, +50
A, h, +90, +280
A, h, +5, +280
A, h, +90, +70
A, h, +100, +220
A, h, +100, +150
A, h, +10, +200
A, h, +110, +110
A, h, +90, +90
A, h, 0, +100
A, h, +25, +75
A, h, +100, +90
A, h, +25, +25
A, h, +10, +50
A, h, +10, +100
A, r, +110, 0
A, r, +110, -50
A, r, +250, -50
A, r, +225, -65
A, r, +80, +25
A, r, +100, +25
A, r, +150, +50
A, r, +150, -10
A, r, +50, +35
A, r, +100, -10
A, r, +50, -35
A, r, +100, -50
A, r, +200, +25
A, r, +200, +25
A, r, +10, 0
A, r, +30, +25
A, r, +30, +25
A, r, +100, -50
A, ro, +125, -60
U, r, -30, +100
In total for the Axis, that gives 1 negative modifier, 1 with no modifier, and 34 positive ones.
In total for the USSR, that is 9 negative modifiers, 2 with no modifier and 24 positive modifiers.
For the Axis the total modifier is 2960%/36 attacks = 82%/attack.
For the USSR the total modifier is 1895%/36 attacks = 53%/attack.

Not sure why I did these numbers, but oh well, I did, and if I spent time on them, you get to read them [:D]

[terje439]

Turn 13 aka Why do I keep playing this game (wite, not this peculiar game)

Overall
Ofc superior units mean nothing when the USSR can pile up 3x my amount of troops. And we all know that the USSR infantry tactic at the start of the war was really good...
Hit a new low in my affection for wite atm. So I will just input the numbers and the screenie.
2 USSR attacks = 2 retreats.
36 Axis attacks = 9 helds, 24 retreats and 3 routs.

Casualties
USSR : 39.000 troops, 687 guns, 322 AFVs, 176 AC.
Axis : 37.000 troops, 335 guns, 127 AFVs, 145 AC.

USSR units in pockets at the start of the turn
0.

USSR units in pockets at the end of the turn
9.

USSR units destroyed
None.

German Pools
Manpower : 523
Vehicles : 166.191
Armaments : 90.413
Hiwi : 62.298

[smokindave34]

Hit a new low in my affection for wite atm.

I feel for you Terje.....there is no margin for error as the axis right now. If you don't have a great opening turn and know how to keep your panzers full of gas (which I haven't figured out yet) you'll be fighting west of the historical lines at the start of the blizzard. And then you have to deal with the blizzard!

I doubt we will see any changes now but I'd personally like to see the 1:1 rule go away at the start of the blizzard. The Soviets are strong enough where they don't need it.