Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

One big difference I see is the fields fought over in Europe were worked and lived on long before the campaigns of WWI and WWII, and the people still live there today. They can't help but come across remains. Nobody lived or worked in the region where the salvage is taking place, and nobody ever made any attempt to respectfully remove the remains from the wrecks before (or had the means to do so). The salvage companies are doing this for money, pure and simple, and there are tons of other wrecks in the ocean that are "low radiation" metal that do not contain the sentimental and historical significance. Leave the dead where they lie, in respectful peace, and honor the sacrifice they made.

Is a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen a fitting tribute to their sacrifice?

Actually, what I meant to say to mind-messing is, I cannot say for certain whether "a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen [is]a fitting tribute to their sacrifice" but I certainly do not believe that hauling it up and selling it for profit is a "fitting tribute."

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: tk208

ORIGINAL: witpqs


Doing things that are both wrong and stupid are not the fault of the one who raises the alarm.

Not at all but how can we tell the difference between wrong and stupid and a legitimate security threat?

None of us here can make that call because none of us know what really goes on behind closed doors and what motivates Intelligence Agencies worldwide to collect different types of Intel.

Better not (for the forum's sake) to go too far down that path of discussion. It is a call that we must make, regardless of the inherent lack of perfection. [8D]

Good idea, that can of worms can stay closed lol

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

One big difference I see is the fields fought over in Europe were worked and lived on long before the campaigns of WWI and WWII, and the people still live there today. They can't help but come across remains. Nobody lived or worked in the region where the salvage is taking place, and nobody ever made any attempt to respectfully remove the remains from the wrecks before (or had the means to do so). The salvage companies are doing this for money, pure and simple, and there are tons of other wrecks in the ocean that are "low radiation" metal that do not contain the sentimental and historical significance. Leave the dead where they lie, in respectful peace, and honor the sacrifice they made.

Is a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen a fitting tribute to their sacrifice?

Actually, what I meant to say to mind-messing is, I cannot say for certain whether "a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen [is]a fitting tribute to their sacrifice" but I certainly do not believe that hauling it up and selling it for profit is a "fitting tribute."

I, for one, would rather that somebody benefitted from it, rather than the wrecks to lie neglected and forgotton on the seabed.

Do you feel the same way about the war memorabilia market, with the knowledge that some (and perhaps even a majority) of it may come from a looted war grave?

ORIGINAL: rustysi

[quote
On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.]

FYI, the Soviet sailors brought up with the K-129 were given a full military honors burial. This was filmed and subsequently shown/given to Russian authorities. As for Mr. Snowden history will tell whether he was right/wrong. As far as spying goes (not saying right/wrong) get over it all governments do it. I myself, was at one time (briefly) part of that community (got out because I did't like the work). I could tell you what I did, but yes I'd still have to kill you.[:D]
[/quote]

Buried with honours or not, the US still wrecked the gravesite without asking the Kremlin nicely.

I suppose you'll be telling me next how you're a highly train SEAL sniper SpecOps with over three hundred confirmed kills.

ORIGINAL: tk208

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna




There's a sentimental difference, I think. Probably in that the remains of the folks who died actually got "cleared away" and sent home for burial. Those battlefields aren't war graves.

The sunken ships are. Even if no actual remains are still there. Admittedly, from my perspective, that makes things a little hazy, but I can still sympathize with the point. Just as I can sympathize with the idea that there are no bodies left... I think I lean a bit farther towards Still A War Grave, though.

Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.

ORIGINAL: tk208




Umm I don't really know what post you were reading mate but it sure as hell wasn't mine. "Showing a bit of spine" does not mean bomb some South East Asian country and I'm pretty sure I never said I approved of how the yanks get their Intel just that it was their leak that caused problems for our Govt. hence the lack of response to the "salvage" operation.

Also refresh my memory as to what my previous views were? Fairly sure this is the only comment I've made on the subject.

Maybe your user name gives a hint or two [8|]

Your previous views were how you wished America would send a carrier battle group to go rattle the sabre in the face of some South-East Asians for having the nerve to try to make a living off sunken American ships.

Combined with your disaproval of Snowden, it gives me a pretty good idea as to how you view the world.


On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.

That wasn't me who said that mate try reading the posts a bit more carefully before you get your knickers in a twist.

Evidently my reading is fine, but you've got a memory problem. Let me quote it for you.

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: rsallen64

ORIGINAL: mind_messing




Is a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen a fitting tribute to their sacrifice?

Actually, what I meant to say to mind-messing is, I cannot say for certain whether "a rusty collection of formless metal sitting at the seabed never to be seen [is]a fitting tribute to their sacrifice" but I certainly do not believe that hauling it up and selling it for profit is a "fitting tribute."

I, for one, would rather that somebody benefitted from it, rather than the wrecks to lie neglected and forgotton on the seabed.

Do you feel the same way about the war memorabilia market, with the knowledge that some (and perhaps even a majority) of it may come from a looted war grave?

ORIGINAL: rustysi

[quote
On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.]

FYI, the Soviet sailors brought up with the K-129 were given a full military honors burial. This was filmed and subsequently shown/given to Russian authorities. As for Mr. Snowden history will tell whether he was right/wrong. As far as spying goes (not saying right/wrong) get over it all governments do it. I myself, was at one time (briefly) part of that community (got out because I did't like the work). I could tell you what I did, but yes I'd still have to kill you.[:D]

Buried with honours or not, the US still wrecked the gravesite without asking the Kremlin nicely.

I suppose you'll be telling me next how you're a highly train SEAL sniper SpecOps with over three hundred confirmed kills.

ORIGINAL: tk208

ORIGINAL: mind_messing

ORIGINAL: Lokasenna




There's a sentimental difference, I think. Probably in that the remains of the folks who died actually got "cleared away" and sent home for burial. Those battlefields aren't war graves.

The sunken ships are. Even if no actual remains are still there. Admittedly, from my perspective, that makes things a little hazy, but I can still sympathize with the point. Just as I can sympathize with the idea that there are no bodies left... I think I lean a bit farther towards Still A War Grave, though.

Without a doubt there are farmers in France and Flanders growing crops over the bodies of dead soldiers from the First World War, yet there's no great cry about their bodies not being respected. Granted, there may be a sentimental difference, but I think it remains a fair pratical comparison.

ORIGINAL: tk208




Umm I don't really know what post you were reading mate but it sure as hell wasn't mine. "Showing a bit of spine" does not mean bomb some South East Asian country and I'm pretty sure I never said I approved of how the yanks get their Intel just that it was their leak that caused problems for our Govt. hence the lack of response to the "salvage" operation.

Also refresh my memory as to what my previous views were? Fairly sure this is the only comment I've made on the subject.

Maybe your user name gives a hint or two [8|]

Your previous views were how you wished America would send a carrier battle group to go rattle the sabre in the face of some South-East Asians for having the nerve to try to make a living off sunken American ships.

Combined with your disaproval of Snowden, it gives me a pretty good idea as to how you view the world.


On a wider note, it's the usual double standards from a moral standpoint. Nobody blinks an eye when the Americans salvage the K-129, yet would explode in anger should someone dare do that to the Americans.

That wasn't me who said that mate try reading the posts a bit more carefully before you get your knickers in a twist.

Evidently my reading is fine, but you've got a memory problem. Let me quote it for you.

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

[/quote]

Ok lol where in that post do I say I wish the Americans would send in a CVBG?

Buried with honours or not, the US still wrecked the gravesite without asking the Kremlin nicely.

I suppose you'll be telling me next how you're a highly train SEAL sniper SpecOps with over three hundred confirmed kills.

OK, excuse me comrade do you mind if we dig up your dead sailors so we can have a look at your nuc sub. Look, I'm not saying it was right but at least we showed some respect to those who gave thier lives in the service of their country. No I was in the ASA (Army Security Agency) when I was in the military. If you don't know what that is it was the military branch of the NSA (no such ageny) and I was an electronics technician. It was disbanded back in the day ostensibly to consolidate the intelligence community. But I think in reality it was because we were caught with our hand in the cookie jar... we were spying on Americans.[:D][:D][:D] And no I'm only jerking your chian, I won't have to shoot you.[:D][:D][:D] All I'm trying to say here is that a little respect should be paid to those who gave their lives in the service of their country. No matter who, no matter where. Those men and wemen who get caught up in all this cr*p usually have nothing to do with it and have little or no choice in the matter.

Buried with honours or not, the US still wrecked the gravesite without asking the Kremlin nicely.

Just a note that the Soviets themselves set a precedent:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_L55

ORIGINAL: koniu

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.

Thanks, very interesting koniu! Was news to me.

Low-background steel

ORIGINAL: koniu

ORIGINAL: tk208

Steel must be worth a bit these days to go to all the trouble of stripping a WW2 wreck, I'd like to see us show a bit of spine but after the spy scandal I cant see that happening[:(]

Cheers Snowden hope your enjoying the motherland.

Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.

Well there you go, didn't know that[8D]

I think if people are really looking for pre-WWII low radiation metal to use, there's thousands of ton's of WWI metal in Scapa Flow from all of the German warships scuttled by their own sailors. Also England scuttled alot of U-Boats after the WWII in Operation Deadlight. So there's plenty of that low rad metal around that are not war graves.

Of the 52 German ships scuttled at Scapa Flow, most have already been raised and scrapped in the 1920s / 1930s. Only seven ships remain there - 3 battleships, 4 cruisers. That still amounts to thousands of tons of steel, but the ships lie in deeper waters and it is considered uneconomical to raise them in their entirety. However, small scraps of low-background steel from the remaining ships are being recovered for devices like Geiger counters.

Yeah, there's plenty of scrap steel in Scotland. Not going to help much when you're in Asia... [8|]

ORIGINAL: koniu
Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.

Possible. Understand that environmentalists that post on The Straight Dope have a different take according to their agenda. Physics, however, has a different take. It's not physically possible. But you can believe Internet posts, or elementary physics. Your choice. Ciao. J

ORIGINAL: Symon

ORIGINAL: koniu
Steel produced prior WW2 is important for science.
It is called Low-background steel and is is very important to build devices that requiring
low radiation background.

Possible. Understand that environmentalists that post on The Straight Dope have a different take according to their agenda. Physics, however, has a different take. It's not physically possible. But you can believe Internet posts, or elementary physics. Your choice. Ciao. J

The Straight Dope

http://www.straightdope.com/columns/rea ... ioactivity

[font="Trebuchet MS"]Maybe you're thinking: at last, a use for that pocket battleship I inherited from Mom. Sorry, the market for old steel is now pretty much sunk. Reduced radioactive dust plus sophisticated instrumentation that corrects for background radiation means new steel can now be used in most cases. There's some lingering demand for really old maritime metal, though. When researchers at one national lab wanted shielding that emitted no radiation whatsoever, they used lead ballast retrieved from the Spanish galleon San Ignacio, which had been lying on the bottom of the Caribbean for 450 years.[/font]

When you say physics says it's not possible, what exactly are you saying is not possible?

Interested as well. The wiki article I found is quite short and contains the "citation needed" tag a few times too often for my taste.

Also the link list is very short:
A link to the straightdope article you posted, the others only are not directly related (the IAEA link does not refer to low background steel, and the UNSC article focuses on "sources and effects of ionizing radiation").

Google reveals a couple of scientific articles but those are only superficially related to the topic as well.

Might well be an urban legend...