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RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:03 pm
by Gaspote
Checking the units in the editor, I noticed japanese units don't get a single device able to penetrate the allied tanks even artillery gun sucks.
Does that mean if armor is superior to penetration, the device can't damage the others ?
Is this the reason why the allied tank didn't get damaged ?
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:10 pm
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Gaspote
Checking the units in the editor, I noticed japanese units don't get a single device able to penetrate the allied tanks even artillery gun sucks.
Does that mean if armor is superior to penetration, the device can't damage the others ?
Is this the reason why the allied tank didn't get damaged ?
I imagine there's a die roll involved. Note that in my previous post of my combat at Urumchi, the Chinese troops didn't have any artillery tubes whatsoever, yet I still lost tanks. Destroyed, not just disabled.
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:21 pm
by Gaspote
What was the attack, shock or deliberate ?
Perhaps it make a difference.
Are you absolutely sure they were no gun ? AA guns work against tank too.
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 3:42 pm
by Lokasenna
ORIGINAL: Gaspote
What was the attack, shock or deliberate ?
Perhaps it make a difference.
Are you absolutely sure they were no gun ? AA guns work against tank too.
No guns. Chinese troops. They don't have any guns. Combat replay said 0 guns. It was a deliberate attack.
What made the difference was a lack of supply in my units. They weren't at 0, but they were definitely below their required amount. Supply has a very bad effect on units if you don't have enough.
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:29 pm
by AE Veteran
This is one of my units, with 37 mm At guns and engineers. Everyone has forgotten to bring pole bombs, flamethrowers, satchel charges, magnetic mines, Molotov cocktails etc.
I'm not expecting my boys to rout the Allies but in three turns they have endured 500+ casualties without any Allied losses. Those Humber armoured cars sure are real mean machines!
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 5:52 pm
by SqzMyLemon
Much ado about nothing. I'd suggest you get on with your game. Go back over your old combat reports of Japanese armour attacks in China. It's your turn and you need to put the right units in play to slow down Allied armour rather than ask for an unfair house rule. You can slow Allied armour under the right conditions at this point, but you'll never stop it completely. You better get used to it.
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:00 pm
by Werewolf13
Forget the numbers.
Here's a real life story about just how scary tanks can be when thrown at troops that have a minimal ability to fight back.
1973 - Northern Germany. A 5 Army field exercise that lasted a month. The US, German, British, French and Dutch armies participated.
About the 2nd week in, the tank company I was serving in with M-60A1 tanks, Co C, 4th Bn, 64th Armor, 3rd Bgd, 3rd Inf div was assigned to attack a Dutch leg infantry battalion. The dutch (I won't capitalize dutch anymore - they failed as soldiers) were camped out in a valley. Whole battalion, about 800 guys. Ovelooking the valley was a lightly wooded hill. We moved our company to the edge of the woods over looking the dutch camp slowly during the night and shut our engines down.
At dawn, just as the sun begain peeking over the eastern horizon, all 17 tanks fired up their engines and on command rolled out of the woods and moved out towards the dutch camp at 10 mph (if you've ever been in a tank you know moving cross crounty at speed can be a not fun experience so we went slow off that hill). The dutch camp was about 1000 yards away. We lit off our artillery simulators (made big booms) and started firing our coax and TC's cupola mounted 50's.
Here's what happened. Keep in mind this was an exercise. No one was going to be hurt. No bullets flying, no artillery landing just 17 tanks manned by 68 guys charging 800 guys who had AT weapons, foxholes, CAS on call etc. 800 guys took off running, on foot, as fast as they could to get away from us. Took a minute or two for the exercise umpires to bring us to a screeching halt and about an hour to round up the dutch and get 'em back to their camp.
Point of the story! You're lucky your virtual Japs only suffered, what, 289 casualties. In real life against Shermans with little real way to do more than scratch the paint or rattle the inside a little a whole battalion of Sherman's could have wreaked some very real havoc. ROFLMAO! One sherman firing its coax MG and hull mounted bow MG could have taken out twice as many as 289 guys in just a few minutes if they were in a concentrated enough location.
Like one poster said: Take yur lumps and move on!
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:22 pm
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: AE Veteran
This is one of my units, with 37 mm At guns and engineers. Everyone has forgotten to bring pole bombs, flamethrowers, satchel charges, magnetic mines, Molotov cocktails etc.
I'm not expecting my boys to rout the Allies but in three turns they have endured 500+ casualties without any Allied losses. Those Humber armoured cars sure are real mean machines!
The Humbers are in Reserve mode, as shown in the screenshot. You aren't getting to shoot at them.
You've got to read the thread and give up on your wishes how you'd like the game to behave. The answers to why this is happening are all there, and your opponent has been kind enough to give you FULL info, including disablements, supply state, leadership, and shoe sizes on his units. Take the learning and play on.
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 6:23 pm
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon
Much ado about nothing. I'd suggest you get on with your game. Go back over your old combat reports of Japanese armour attacks in China. It's your turn and you need to put the right units in play to slow down Allied armour rather than ask for an unfair house rule. You can slow Allied armour under the right conditions at this point, but you'll never stop it completely. You better get used to it.
If you play long enough to see full Soviet armored divisions . . .
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 7:51 pm
by AE Veteran
A fair number of people goe on about the Chinese. Cant remember any suicide Chinese squads? Apples and pears. Fraid the game is broken. Allied Abrams tanks vs Japs inferior technology. Draw your conclusions.
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 8:02 pm
by Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: AE Veteran
A fair number of people goe on about the Chinese. Cant remember any suicide Chinese squads? Apples and pears. Fraid the game is broken. Allied Abrams tanks vs Japs inferior technology. Draw your conclusions.
I conclude this ain't the game for you. Bye.
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Wed May 21, 2014 10:01 pm
by USSAmerica
Where's Ron when we need him? [:D]
"The Allied armor is BORKED!!!" [8D]
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 12:15 am
by Jim D Burns
ORIGINAL: AE Veteran
This is one of my units, with 37 mm At guns and engineers. Everyone has forgotten to bring pole bombs, flamethrowers, satchel charges, magnetic mines, Molotov cocktails etc.
I'm not expecting my boys to rout the Allies but in three turns they have endured 500+ casualties without any Allied losses. Those Humber armoured cars sure are real mean machines!
I’m starting to think this has to do with the combat odds ratio. He has such an abysmal odds ratio, his guys are probably breaking off the combat before the tanks can close in to range with your AT guns, so they never actually get to shoot back. Someone with a much better understanding of the combat routines would have to confirm this, but my guess is your guns aren’t even getting to shoot at him. Simply put, he outranges you then the combat breaks off due to his low odds attack.
Slow down your combat replay and carefully read all the messages in the battle display as they come up. It may give you some insight into what is going on.
Jim
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:33 am
by Czert
ORIGINAL: AE Veteran
This is one of my units, with 37 mm At guns and engineers. Everyone has forgotten to bring pole bombs, flamethrowers, satchel charges, magnetic mines, Molotov cocktails etc.
I'm not expecting my boys to rout the Allies but in three turns they have endured 500+ casualties without any Allied losses. Those Humber armoured cars sure are real mean machines!
well i just have to ask - why 37mm guns dont fire back ? lack of range ? and since enemy tank units dont have artylery gun there, why uits are not set al least to bombard ? yeah, knocking out enemy tank will be mamtter of luck, but you can disable him, and minimaly play on tankers nerves.
Mayby even deliberate attack should be considered - it it fail, well whats difference if that place fall one week earlier or later ?
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 10:51 am
by Czert
ORIGINAL: AE Veteran
A fair number of people goe on about the Chinese. Cant remember any suicide Chinese squads? Apples and pears. Fraid the game is broken. Allied Abrams tanks vs Japs inferior technology. Draw your conclusions.
Well, you didnt knowed that allied will have booth numbers and quality advantages in tank over japs from 43 and mainly 44+ on ?
Ok, np it is just lack of history knowlenge, no one can know all.
but you have problem that you can deal with it in game ? well, that your problem.¨
deliberate attack with tanks is, well, just direct fire artilery with some nice anti-shell protection
. It is NOT charging of enemy treches with tanks they will NEVER do it unless defender colapse) for that it is shock assault.
You want to get to molotov coctails range ? well, wait eigter for shock attack (which may never come), or well do counterattack by yourself (deliberate/shock) - but well, you will lose defence bonuses.
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:02 am
by LoBaron
ORIGINAL: czert2
ORIGINAL: AE Veteran
A fair number of people goe on about the Chinese. Cant remember any suicide Chinese squads? Apples and pears. Fraid the game is broken. Allied Abrams tanks vs Japs inferior technology. Draw your conclusions.
[...]It is NOT charging of enemy treches with tanks they will NEVER do it unless defender colapse) for that it is shock assault.
You want to get to molotov coctails range ? well, wait eigter for shock attack (which may never come), or well do counterattack by yourself (deliberate/shock) - but well, you will lose defence bonuses.
This is a very good comment actually.
And in AE, depending on the circumstances, Inf, even with low antiarmor values, can dish out quite well against tanks in case the tanks are not supported by Inf themselves. But for this they have to attack with reasonable numbers (triple to quadruple AV as minimum).
In this specific case I doubt though that IJA numbers and unit quality is anywhere near the amount required. The results are pretty unsurprising.
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:20 am
by AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: Werewolf1326
Forget the numbers.
Here's a real life story about just how scary tanks can be when thrown at troops that have a minimal ability to fight back.
1973 - Northern Germany. A 5 Army field exercise that lasted a month. The US, German, British, French and Dutch armies participated.
About the 2nd week in, the tank company I was serving in with M-60A1 tanks, Co C, 4th Bn, 64th Armor, 3rd Bgd, 3rd Inf div was assigned to attack a Dutch leg infantry battalion. The dutch (I won't capitalize dutch anymore - they failed as soldiers) were camped out in a valley. Whole battalion, about 800 guys. Ovelooking the valley was a lightly wooded hill. We moved our company to the edge of the woods over looking the dutch camp slowly during the night and shut our engines down.
At dawn, just as the sun begain peeking over the eastern horizon, all 17 tanks fired up their engines and on command rolled out of the woods and moved out towards the dutch camp at 10 mph (if you've ever been in a tank you know moving cross crounty at speed can be a not fun experience so we went slow off that hill). The dutch camp was about 1000 yards away. We lit off our artillery simulators (made big booms) and started firing our coax and TC's cupola mounted 50's.
Here's what happened. Keep in mind this was an exercise. No one was going to be hurt. No bullets flying, no artillery landing just 17 tanks manned by 68 guys charging 800 guys who had AT weapons, foxholes, CAS on call etc. 800 guys took off running, on foot, as fast as they could to get away from us. Took a minute or two for the exercise umpires to bring us to a screeching halt and about an hour to round up the dutch and get 'em back to their camp.
Point of the story! You're lucky your virtual Japs only suffered, what, 289 casualties. In real life against Shermans with little real way to do more than scratch the paint or rattle the inside a little a whole battalion of Sherman's could have wreaked some very real havoc. ROFLMAO! One sherman firing its coax MG and hull mounted bow MG could have taken out twice as many as 289 guys in just a few minutes if they were in a concentrated enough location.
Like one poster said: Take yur lumps and move on!
+1
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 11:21 am
by AW1Steve
ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58
ORIGINAL: AE Veteran
A fair number of people goe on about the Chinese. Cant remember any suicide Chinese squads? Apples and pears. Fraid the game is broken. Allied Abrams tanks vs Japs inferior technology. Draw your conclusions.
I conclude this ain't the game for you. Bye.
+1
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:17 pm
by Yaab
Those two brigades and the AA battalion should have enough field, AT and AA artillery pieces to at least successfully disable the Stuarts and halftracks. What is wrong with their targeting?
RE: House rules for impregnable Allied armour
Posted: Thu May 22, 2014 1:36 pm
by witpqs
For one thing the morale of the unit shown is 56 - really terrible.