Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: 76mm

ORIGINAL: paulderynck
What this forum can do - when the time comes - is try and arrive at a consensus as to what should be the list of optional rules that the AI plays with.

But isn't that time right now? I thought that at least some work has gone into the AI already, and you would certainly think that before getting very far at all Steve would want to know which optional rules will be implemented?

My main concern is that they might simply leave out all of the optional rules and develop the AI only to use only the base rules, which would to a large degree defeat the purpose of using the AI as a "training aid".

Hi 76mm glad to see your still hanging in there, missed you for awhile. I agree with you but I probably stand alone on that one. It would be fine to start out with the base rules and nothing wrong with using it as a training aid, it would be one sight better than nothing at all.

Why cant Steve do a modest AI for Barbarossa? Of all the scenarios this should be the easiest, very little navy involved if at all, supply, etc. The scenario is cut and dried IMO, using novice rules and see what transpires, then people who bought this game could hang their hats on that, meaning those who prefer and AI over other forms of play.

If net play were around the corner than I have no problem waiting for it even though I have no intentions of using it. But it is not around the corner and anybody here with common sense should know that. We should stop living in this MWIF perfect dream world and look at reality. We are a long way from netplay . Cad98 HELP! you can explain it better than I can.

IMHO Barbarossa should be a very reasonable task to complete in a short period of time, what do I know about that, NOTHING! Just hoping.

There are very few problems with Barbarossa if any, supply etc. So I feel it should be ready to go. Make it simple and then all the players can test it while Steve works on netplay, by then we should all know what is needed in the AI. There will be the naysayers who will say we have to get everything else right first, supply production etc.

And I say baloney, while Steve is using his right hand to correct the few remaining supply problems, his left hand is idle, [:D] put it to use make a simple AI for Barbarossa [;)]

I promise you it will be tested to hell and back.

Bo

ORIGINAL: smitht2ls

Haven't read the AI forum discussion in a bit but I believe Steve had a 3 level AI planned. Top level Strategic AI, Theater AI and Army Commander AI for each major power.

That sounds good to me smitty but in the meantime how about a simple Barbarossa, novice rules. Lets start small and build on it, does that make sense?

Bo

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: smitht2ls

Haven't read the AI forum discussion in a bit but I believe Steve had a 3 level AI planned. Top level Strategic AI, Theater AI and Army Commander AI for each major power.

That sounds good to me smitty but in the meantime how about a simple Barbarossa, novice rules. Lets start small and build on it, does that make sense?

Bo

Bo,

I am backing out of THIS conversation as you are headed for more disappointment I believe.

Your simple AI idea I would bet isn't happening.

And you are not alone, many people have similar views as yours.

Be well,

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: smitht2ls

Haven't read the AI forum discussion in a bit but I believe Steve had a 3 level AI planned. Top level Strategic AI, Theater AI and Army Commander AI for each major power.

That sounds good to me smitty but in the meantime how about a simple Barbarossa, novice rules. Lets start small and build on it, does that make sense?

Bo

Bo,

I am backing out of THIS conversation as you are headed for more disappointment I believe.

Your simple AI idea I would bet isn't happening.

And you are not alone, many people have similar views as yours.

Be well,

warspite1

I agree. The reason why I suspect it won't happen (anytime soon) is that Matrix has re-ordered the priority list as previously announced; Supply, Production, Naval bugs (+ any game killers in the meantime) then Netplay. The AI - even a "lite" version for Barbarossa - I suspect will have to wait.

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: smitht2ls

Haven't read the AI forum discussion in a bit but I believe Steve had a 3 level AI planned. Top level Strategic AI, Theater AI and Army Commander AI for each major power.

That sounds good to me smitty but in the meantime how about a simple Barbarossa, novice rules. Lets start small and build on it, does that make sense?

Bo

Bo,

I am backing out of THIS conversation as you are headed for more disappointment I believe.

Your simple AI idea I would bet isn't happening.

And you are not alone, many people have similar views as yours.

Be well,

I respect your backing out of this, totally understanable, I have been dissapointed for years, a few more wont matter. I will never stop fighting for an AI now or later and if some people dont like that then shame on them, just maybe if some other people had spoken out a little louder and backed me and Cad the game would not have been released on Nov 7th 2013, and then again?

These posts are for speaking up throwing ideas out there you know throwing something against the wall and hoping some of it sticks [;)]

If you dont speak up then nothing will ever happen pro or con.

Bo

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: bo




That sounds good to me smitty but in the meantime how about a simple Barbarossa, novice rules. Lets start small and build on it, does that make sense?

Bo

Bo,

I am backing out of THIS conversation as you are headed for more disappointment I believe.

Your simple AI idea I would bet isn't happening.

And you are not alone, many people have similar views as yours.

Be well,

warspite1

I agree. The reason why I suspect it won't happen (anytime soon) is that Matrix has re-ordered the priority list as previously announced; Supply, Production, Naval bugs (+ any game killers in the meantime) then Netplay. The AI - even a "lite" version for Barbarossa - I suspect will have to wait.

Agreed they are the priority, but if it has taken this long to come close [not there yet] to fixing the problems you mentioned what do you think net play will take to complete. You know just maybe if Steve gets frustrated and I am sure he is, it would be relaxing to sit back and do a little here, a little there on a modest AI, for all I know he might just be doing that [&:] Hmmmm!

I would think as a inexperienced programmer, me [took the 2 week course, did not help though] [:(] I really think Barbarossa would be a walk in the park for Steve, for an experienced programmer like Steve there is nothing complicated there, supply is straight forward no naval to be concerned with, production is not a factor in Barbarossa.

I do not think there is any bugs there, production is a nothing because you can only get a few units produced to make it in time before the scenario ends [5 turns] People we are talking about Barbarossa, not global war for gods sakes! That would be a monumental task for an AI. [Global War] Might never see it in Global War and that is understandable.

Bo

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish




Bo,

I am backing out of THIS conversation as you are headed for more disappointment I believe.

Your simple AI idea I would bet isn't happening.

And you are not alone, many people have similar views as yours.

Be well,

warspite1

I agree. The reason why I suspect it won't happen (anytime soon) is that Matrix has re-ordered the priority list as previously announced; Supply, Production, Naval bugs (+ any game killers in the meantime) then Netplay. The AI - even a "lite" version for Barbarossa - I suspect will have to wait.

Agreed they are the priority, but if it has taken this long to come close [not there yet] to fixing the problems you mentioned what do you think net play will take to complete. You know just maybe if Steve gets frustrated and I am sure he is, it would be relaxing to sit back and do a little here, a little there on a modest AI, for all I know he might just be doing that [&:] Hmmmm!

I would think as a inexperienced programmer, me [took the 2 week course, did not help though] [:(] I really think Barbarossa would be a walk in the park for Steve, for an experienced programmer like Steve there is nothing complicated there, supply is straight forward no naval to be concerned with, production is not a factor in Barbarossa.

I do not think there is any bugs there, production is a nothing because you can only get a few units produced to make it in time before the scenario ends [5 turns] People we are talking about Barbarossa, not global war for gods sakes! That would be a monumental task for an AI. [Global War] Might never see it in Global War and that is understandable.

Bo

warspite1

bo I almost fell off my chair when I read that!! The whole game is complicated as hell to program or else the game wouldn't be in the situation it is in, god knows how many years since the project started [;)]

I would like to think that if this truly was a "quick win" then the powers that be would have seriously considered this. But the fact they have decided to proceed with the plan as previously outlined makes me suspect this would be another long term project - even if limited to just Barbarossa.

ORIGINAL: warspite1


bo I almost fell off my chair when I read that!! The whole game is complicated as hell to program or else the game wouldn't be in the situation it is in, god knows how many years since the project started [;)]

I would like to think that if this truly was a "quick win" then the powers that be would have seriously considered this. But the fact they have decided to proceed with the plan as previously outlined makes me suspect this would be another long term project - even if limited to just Barbarossa.

Warspite1 hit it on the head better than me.

If you're going to program an AI you do it. Wasting FINITE resources on an "AI Lite" only makes sense if that is now the end goal to this game (which I do not believe it is).

I am not going to discuss the silly idea that it would be a starting point to build upon. It doesn't work that way.

I am sorry I returned, I am gone from this thread I hope.

Just when I thought I was free....it pulled me back into the vortex...

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: warspite1


bo I almost fell off my chair when I read that!! The whole game is complicated as hell to program or else the game wouldn't be in the situation it is in, god knows how many years since the project started [;)]

I would like to think that if this truly was a "quick win" then the powers that be would have seriously considered this. But the fact they have decided to proceed with the plan as previously outlined makes me suspect this would be another long term project - even if limited to just Barbarossa.

Warspite1 hit it on the head better than me.

If you're going to program an AI you do it. Wasting FINITE resources on an "AI Lite" only makes sense if that is now the end goal to this game (which I do not believe it is).

I am not going to discuss the silly idea that it would be a starting point to build upon. It doesn't work that way.

I am sorry I returned, I am gone from this thread I hope.

Just when I thought I was free....it pulled me back into the vortex...

Oh you will be back I just have to think up something new to harass you with, the word lite is not my wording if you had noticed.

Bo

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

ORIGINAL: warspite1


bo I almost fell off my chair when I read that!! The whole game is complicated as hell to program or else the game wouldn't be in the situation it is in, god knows how many years since the project started [;)]

I would like to think that if this truly was a "quick win" then the powers that be would have seriously considered this. But the fact they have decided to proceed with the plan as previously outlined makes me suspect this would be another long term project - even if limited to just Barbarossa.

Warspite1 hit it on the head better than me.

If you're going to program an AI you do it. Wasting FINITE resources on an "AI Lite" only makes sense if that is now the end goal to this game (which I do not believe it is).

I am not going to discuss the silly idea that it would be a starting point to build upon. It doesn't work that way.

I am sorry I returned, I am gone from this thread I hope.

Just when I thought I was free....it pulled me back into the vortex...

Oh you will be back I just have to think up something new to harass you with, the word lite is not my wording if you had noticed.

Bo

warspite1

bo, nothing was intended by the word "lite" other than you believe that an AI for Barbarossa would be a "walk in the park" because it would be a simpler version of a Global War AI. i.e. because it does not have to deal with Production and the Naval war (as well as other elements of the game). Call it lite or whatever you like - I just happened to use the word lite. IF that is not what you meant then please can I ask you to clarify?

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: warspite1


warspite1

I agree. The reason why I suspect it won't happen (anytime soon) is that Matrix has re-ordered the priority list as previously announced; Supply, Production, Naval bugs (+ any game killers in the meantime) then Netplay. The AI - even a "lite" version for Barbarossa - I suspect will have to wait.

Agreed they are the priority, but if it has taken this long to come close [not there yet] to fixing the problems you mentioned what do you think net play will take to complete. You know just maybe if Steve gets frustrated and I am sure he is, it would be relaxing to sit back and do a little here, a little there on a modest AI, for all I know he might just be doing that [&:] Hmmmm!

I would think as a inexperienced programmer, me [took the 2 week course, did not help though] [:(] I really think Barbarossa would be a walk in the park for Steve, for an experienced programmer like Steve there is nothing complicated there, supply is straight forward no naval to be concerned with, production is not a factor in Barbarossa.

I do not think there is any bugs there, production is a nothing because you can only get a few units produced to make it in time before the scenario ends [5 turns] People we are talking about Barbarossa, not global war for gods sakes! That would be a monumental task for an AI. [Global War] Might never see it in Global War and that is understandable.

Bo

warspite1

bo I almost fell off my chair when I read that!! The whole game is complicated as hell to program or else the game wouldn't be in the situation it is in, god knows how many years since the project started [;)]

I would like to think that if this truly was a "quick win" then the powers that be would have seriously considered this. But the fact they have decided to proceed with the plan as previously outlined makes me suspect this would be another long term project - even if limited to just Barbarossa.

I apoligize warspite hope you did not hurt yourself [:D] Look if you dont put things out there how do you kinow if this can be done or that can be done. I am not trying to be a wart on Steves back, maybe he would be good enough to enlighten me and other concerned posters as to what is possible and what is not. It seems to me that the powers that be as you put it didnt exactly hit the nail on the head with a lot of things this last year. I have very little confidence in their decisions anymore. [:(]

Bo

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish




Warspite1 hit it on the head better than me.

If you're going to program an AI you do it. Wasting FINITE resources on an "AI Lite" only makes sense if that is now the end goal to this game (which I do not believe it is).

I am not going to discuss the silly idea that it would be a starting point to build upon. It doesn't work that way.

I am sorry I returned, I am gone from this thread I hope.

Just when I thought I was free....it pulled me back into the vortex...

Oh you will be back I just have to think up something new to harass you with, the word lite is not my wording if you had noticed.

Bo

warspite1

bo, nothing was intended by the word "lite" other than you believe that an AI for Barbarossa would be a "walk in the park" because it would be a simpler version of a Global War AI. i.e. because it does not have to deal with Production and the Naval war (as well as other elements of the game). Call it lite or whatever you like - I just happened to use the word lite. IF that is not what you meant then please can I ask you to clarify?

I was answering flipper I have no problem with the word lite I understand exactly what you mean but after Neilsters comment that this is Steves forte, I was just curious nothing sinister going on here.

Bo

ORIGINAL: bo

ORIGINAL: warspite1

ORIGINAL: bo



Agreed they are the priority, but if it has taken this long to come close [not there yet] to fixing the problems you mentioned what do you think net play will take to complete. You know just maybe if Steve gets frustrated and I am sure he is, it would be relaxing to sit back and do a little here, a little there on a modest AI, for all I know he might just be doing that [&:] Hmmmm!

I would think as a inexperienced programmer, me [took the 2 week course, did not help though] [:(] I really think Barbarossa would be a walk in the park for Steve, for an experienced programmer like Steve there is nothing complicated there, supply is straight forward no naval to be concerned with, production is not a factor in Barbarossa.

I do not think there is any bugs there, production is a nothing because you can only get a few units produced to make it in time before the scenario ends [5 turns] People we are talking about Barbarossa, not global war for gods sakes! That would be a monumental task for an AI. [Global War] Might never see it in Global War and that is understandable.

Bo

warspite1

bo I almost fell off my chair when I read that!! The whole game is complicated as hell to program or else the game wouldn't be in the situation it is in, god knows how many years since the project started [;)]

I would like to think that if this truly was a "quick win" then the powers that be would have seriously considered this. But the fact they have decided to proceed with the plan as previously outlined makes me suspect this would be another long term project - even if limited to just Barbarossa.

I apoligize warspite hope you did not hurt yourself [:D] Look if you dont put things out there how do you kinow if this can be done or that can be done. I am not trying to be a wart on Steves back, maybe he would be good enough to enlighten me and other concerned posters as to what is possible and what is not. It seems to me that the powers that be as you put it didnt exactly hit the nail on the head with a lot of things this last year. I have very little confidence in their decisions anymore. [:(]

Bo

warspite1

I'm okay - it was a low chair [:D]

We've seen how long its been since the Matrix announcement and we still await a clean, bug-free supply system. Using that as a guide, can you imagine how long it is likely to take to sort Production? On that basis I cannot see how Steve can be working - even part-time - on an AI.

ok Warspite I am going to post a question in the beta forums instead of here.

Bo

I used the "lite" reference as describing the Barbaroso AI Bo desired.
My point is it isn't in any way EASY to do, and in fact
Would only delay or kill the desired AI for the whole program.

I can barely see on my phone.

I'll correct spelling errors after I get home after work (DONE).

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

I used the "lite" reference as describing the Barbaraso AI Bo desired.
My point is it isnt in any way EASY to do, and in favt
Woud only delay or kill the desired AI for the whole program.

I can bareky see on my phone.

Ill correct spelling errors after I get home after work.

Hi Flipper
I understand the word lite and how you meant and I am not disagreeing with you in any way. Below is an e-mail I received from a respected poster. [no names] He is not saying do this now or later but this is how he would do it. I just thought maybe wrongfully so that if Steve got a chance he could put out a "lite" AI on Barbarossa, get all the posters involved, take all their suggestions and at a later date create an AI for all the scenarios.
Of course Steve might not need any suggestions.

I will stand by this to the day I die, if this game had been released with an AI the sales would be in the many thousands as compared to what they are now

Asty said wargaming was a niche and MWIF was niche inside that niche, good statement and very true. If he means that it is really for the boardgaming community as a niche that may very well be true. Meaning the best way to play the game is aginst a human opponet which would be net play.

No argument there, but I believe that the war gaming community is starving for a great game. IMHO there is no game at Matrix or at Battlefront that can come close to this game if it is ever finished. I took a shot in the dark gentlemen suggesting an AI for Barbarossa. trying anything to put some life into this game thats all, nothing sinister.


Quote by a friend.

On the AI, yes I think Barbarossa (and Guadalcanal) should be the first ones coded. The limited scope (no production or real resource routing) and reduced options should enable the basic land / naval decision making process to get perfected, which would also give the consumer something to do during the long, Long, LOng, LONg, LONG wait for a fully functional AI. (Optimistic aren't I )

Bo

Bo,

If he has the time I do believe you should be having this type discussion with Steve.

Doing it here can only get your hopes raised only to be dropped like a lead weight.

I understand I believe what your friends idea is and I cannot see it developing that way.

I could be wrong, but that is why you should chat with Steve and not in the forum.

You can't breath life into MWIF, it will stand tall on its own or not.

Be well,

ORIGINAL: flipperwasirish

Bo,

If he has the time I do believe you should be having this type discussion with Steve.

Doing it here can only get your hopes raised only to be dropped like a lead weight.

I understand I believe what your friends idea is and I cannot see it developing that way.

I could be wrong, but that is why you should chat with Steve and not in the forum.

You can't breath life into MWIF, it will stand tall on its own or not.

Be well,

This is what the forums are for Flipper, I have the right to seek other opinions pro or con and yes I am trying to breathe life into the forums but I am not doing well [:(] Talk to Steve hmmm wheres that playing, I do not think I am his favorite uncle right now, he has known my feelings about the AI for over 5 years now and in person I also told him how I felt.

But your right I cant breathe life into MWIF and my friend is convinced what he said I could put into the post is the right way to go, he and I spent countless hours on trying to solve net play over a year ago and got nowheres with it. I asked him to post his feelings but he seems to want to stay out of the fray cant blame him. Stand on its own hmmm that is a pretty big order. I guess end of story. SAD!

Bo

For me it's just frustrating for all the bugs.
I've been busy last couple weeks and haven't been able to play. Go in to last saved game and am in the Naval phase and there's 1/2 dozen or so battles in different regions of the world. Get to the last blow out between Japanese and US Navy. Many carrier aircraft battle and all that is left is a couple US Aircraft. Then BUG! Screen shows the aircraft but I can do nothing else. Of course since it is in the middle of the naval battle phase I can't save. Can I reproduce, don't know, don't care. I'm tired of taking the time to submit bugs then to just be told "it's already reported".
So I'm going to take the summer off from WiF and hope that some real progress can be made. Right now it is just looking like I blew $99 on something that just has too many issues.

My rant is over . . . have a nice day!

ORIGINAL: bo

I guess end of story. SAD!

Bo

Bo,

Of course the forums are for posting anything you want. My advice to speak to Steve (He (and Matrix) will decide what is feasible at this point in the project) was only an attempt to prevent you from getting your hopes up and then shot down.

I do not believe this is anywhere near the end of the MWIF story, as long as Steve breathes there are possibilities.

Be well,