Matrix Games Forums

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

What has not been mentioned is that 33mm of in game armor does not make a hell of a lot of difference.
You have to look at what the Mutsu/Nagato is being hit by in game. 33mm is not going to make a difference whether or not a 1000 lb GP bomb from a US divebomber penetrates the deck. It is not going to make a difference in any shell 12" or larger according to the editor ratings.
The only question is can the deck armor stop a 8" shell with that extra 33mm of armor and looking at the editor and my very rudimentary understanding of the armor penetration code, the answer is no. A 8" shell even at a very short range will still not penetrate even if the deck armor is the wrong thickness in game.

I am all for in game accuracy. But I don't think 33mm of deck armor has won or lost a game yet nor do I even think it has made the difference between one of those ships being sunk despite the tens of thousands of games played to this point.

I agree with your basic conclusion. But, even though the formulas are kept secret from us, it has been made clear that the values in the editor are adjusted by the combat routines for things such as range and angle (from angle of fall and from relative facing). So even when comparing the editor values says a thing will penetrate, it will not always do so. And when editor values say it won't, maybe sometimes it will.

ORIGINAL: witpqs

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager

What has not been mentioned is that 33mm of in game armor does not make a hell of a lot of difference.
You have to look at what the Mutsu/Nagato is being hit by in game. 33mm is not going to make a difference whether or not a 1000 lb GP bomb from a US divebomber penetrates the deck. It is not going to make a difference in any shell 12" or larger according to the editor ratings.
The only question is can the deck armor stop a 8" shell with that extra 33mm of armor and looking at the editor and my very rudimentary understanding of the armor penetration code, the answer is no. A 8" shell even at a very short range will still not penetrate even if the deck armor is the wrong thickness in game.

I am all for in game accuracy. But I don't think 33mm of deck armor has won or lost a game yet nor do I even think it has made the difference between one of those ships being sunk despite the tens of thousands of games played to this point.

I agree with your basic conclusion. But, even though the formulas are kept secret from us, it has been made clear that the values in the editor are adjusted by the combat routines for things such as range and angle (from angle of fall and from relative facing). So even when comparing the editor values says a thing will penetrate, it will not always do so. And when editor values say it won't, maybe sometimes it will.

I completely agree. But when you look at something like a 1000 lb US GP bomb. The penetration value is so high, that even if you factor in the fuzzy logic and if the die rolls are the lowest possible, the value is still so high that it can penetrate any deck armor in the game.
Deck armor is really of no value at all during an air attack when you are facing anything 250 KG or larger. 500 lb US bombs not being included. You have to cross your fingers that the WITP gods will give you belt, turret or tower hits.

And anything 14" or larger will not be stopped by deck armor either at any range even if you roll the luckiest die rolls you can roll.
Even 8" shells can penetrate deck armor at close ranges assuming they can hit the deck and not the belt.

Deck armor by WW2 was really a antiquated design idea that just added weight to a ship. The RN in it's late war fleet carrier designs did studies to find out how much armor would be needed to protect against bomb hits and decided that there was no solution currently possible since the needed amount would mean a ship in excess of 60,000 tons.
The US had much more luck with wooden decks that could be quickly patched and relied on good fire fighting and damage control. They accepted that damaged was going to occur and rather than trying to stop it, the best method was to contain and control it and use the weight elsewhere in propulsion and AA guns.

In a surface engagement, deck armor will take very oblique strikes at short enough range.

ORIGINAL: Fallschirmjager
Deck armor by WW2 was really a antiquated design idea that just added weight to a ship. The RN in it's late war fleet carrier designs did studies to find out how much armor would be needed to protect against bomb hits and decided that there was no solution currently possible since the needed amount would mean a ship in excess of 60,000 tons.
The US had much more luck with wooden decks that could be quickly patched and relied on good fire fighting and damage control. They accepted that damaged was going to occur and rather than trying to stop it, the best method was to contain and control it and use the weight elsewhere in propulsion and AA guns.

When it comes to surface gunfire and hence battleship design this is absolutely not the case, and I would argue that having adequate deck armour was an absolute necessity for a large surface combatant in WW2, simply because of the threat presented by longer range gunnery and the resulting steeper angles of fall for shells. At the same time, even fairly 'modest' (compared to what is required to stop a large AP bomb) deck protection will be capable of defeating shells at short (lets say under 15,000 yards) ranges, whereas not having it would result in a rather bad day.

...But when you look at something like a 1000 lb US GP bomb. The penetration value is so high, that even if you factor in the fuzzy logic and if the die rolls are the lowest possible, the value is still so high that it can penetrate any deck armor in the game.
Deck armor is really of no value at all during an air attack when you are facing anything 250 KG or larger. 500 lb US bombs not being included. You have to cross your fingers that the WITP gods will give you belt, turret or tower hits.

That is not true. Most battleships of second world war were made with deck to resist 500kg bombs. In the game the 800kg AP penetrates 180 while Iowa class deck is 188...

Ok, source I mentioned above is:
 
Skwiot, Miroslaw, "Encyklopedia Okretow Wojennych - Natago Mutsu vol. 1", AJ-Press, Gdansk, 2007, p88