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for me the answer is simple, no way. too much HI and there be little fuel to use her late war anyways.

For me (as much as I hate saying it), the IJN is doomed. I will conserve them as long as possible, but when I find an way to do some serious damage, I'll do it in a heartbeat. My goal is for surface actions with the Combined Fleet against loaded transports. Such fun! [:D]

There's an old quote: "To win a war takes millions. To lose one takes all you've got." In this game, Imperial Japan will definitely fall into the latter half. I expect to have nothing left when my AAR is over. I will fight with everything to the bitter end. But, the bitter end will come. I will use economy of force as much as possible, mainly to conserve fuel and supply. But, when I see an opportunity, I will pounce on it with everything at my disposal.

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Costing between 250000 and 380000 HI to complete, do you finish her.. Yes or no...

HAI! [&o]

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

ORIGINAL: Cannonfodder

Costing between 250000 and 380000 HI to complete, do you finish her.. Yes or no...

HAI! [&o]

Except that you're not able to start and complete 85 more Yugumos instead.

In Wargamers AAR the Mushashi had two engagements with Allied cruiser forces and underperformed badly. Sigh.

ORIGINAL: oreskovich

I had a similar experience against the Yamato. The Revenge blundered into the Yamato in the Indian Ocean in the middle of a thunderstorm. At 1000 yards the Revenge put an entire broadside into the Yamato and then pummeled the Yamato until she went down. I probably hit the Yamato 20 or 25 times with the Revenge's main armament before the Yamato sank. It was a lucky engagement for sure but all that Japanese HI expenditure got erased by an almost 30 year old BB.

Back in the days of WitP, a British CV task force ended up 1 hex away from the Yamato with no air cover. The first wave of Stringbags did such a good job the second wave couldn't find anything to attack. The Swordfish must have scored a critical hit. Yamato, the one hit wonder.

In the real history the Yamato class didn't have a great record. The Musashi only fired her main batteries in anger once, at a TBF, and missed. She was sunk by a swarm of USN air crews who had grown rusty at attacking capital ships. After the performance against the Center Force at Leyte the USN decided to give their bomber crews some remedial training on attacking capital ships. Especially in launching torpedoes. Against the Yamato the following April, they fared much better. The Avengers were much better disciplined and the Yamato didn't stand a chance.

The Yamato is the only ship of the class to ever get a chance to shoot at enemy ships and it turned out to be some CVEs, DDs, and DEs. On paper, the Center Force should have crushed Taffy 3. They inflicted some serious damage, but the results were fairly paltry compared to the amount of ordinance used. The DDs and DEs in combination with the TBMs from the CVEs were enough to get the Japanese to break off and run. They performed excellently considering the situation. The Johnston was firing practice paint rounds at one point because they had run out of real ammo.

The Shinano just became target practice for a sub. In the end the entire class was a waste of resources. The Japanese would have been much better off if they had dedicated the same materials to building Shokakus.

Bill

The Shokakus were fairly amazing. 3 more of them would have made a difference.

Unfortunately, we can't use the HI dedicated for Musashi or Yamato for other ships that aren't already in the queue, so 85 more Yugumos aren't a possibility. Also, comparing the game with reality isn't useful (in my opinion, of course) because they are two entirely different animals. The real question is, do you want to use the HI to build the Musashi, or use the HI for something else, be it accelerating other ships or for something completely different. I guess it's all what you feel is the best use for the HI. As I said earlier, I mass when I decide an objective is strategically important. Unless the Musashi is the only capital ship around, I'd send her in with every capital ship I could muster for the effort. If she was alone, I'd probably withdraw her, since against a superior force, she'd most likely be lost for little gain. Sending the Musashi and Yamato against a large enemy surface force may maul the enemy force, but the loss of the Japanese force would be of far greater impact to the Japanese player than the loss of the Allied surface force. On the other hand, those same Japanese ships mauling an invasion TF with 2-3 Allied divisions would definitely slow down the Allied drive. To me, that's worth the risk to the Japanese forces.

This does bring up a mod idea. In a mod, someone could fill the Japanese ship production queue with a bunch of ships that were never built and part of the scenario instructions would be that the Japanese player would have to decide which ships to build, trying to build all would destroy their economy. This would allow the Japanese player to adjust ship building priorities to their wishes. So you could cancel the Yamatos and build more DDs, or more tankers.

Bill

Or another 4,000 MTBs.

ORIGINAL: wdolson

This does bring up a mod idea. In a mod, someone could fill the Japanese ship production queue with a bunch of ships that were never built and part of the scenario instructions would be that the Japanese player would have to decide which ships to build, trying to build all would destroy their economy. This would allow the Japanese player to adjust ship building priorities to their wishes. So you could cancel the Yamatos and build more DDs, or more tankers.

Bill

That would be great to have a yearly "Circle Plan" type game decision that would fill the ship build queue with a set number of build points and fill with historic models (including more Shokakus). The ships in queue would have to be built in order (no acceleration) but ships already in queue could be modified or scrapped. Since Yamato and Musashi are already in queue - scrapping one or both would return a certain amount of resources (steel/copper/already stockpiled plating and equipment) - or give the option to modify them both into Shinanos. Either choice would put that particular Shipyard in a transition freeze of a couple of months to retool and start the modification - or clear the Slipway for the next ship in the build queue.

Not for sure if or how you could fit that kind of mechanic into the current game. At a minimum it would require new user interface screens and a modification to the ship database as in an availability time frame for the new feature.

The result would be that you couldn't build those 85 Destroyers exactly as you would be replacing something in a Large Shipyard Slip with a CV/CA/smaller BBs. You could build some more Destroyers as part of your "Circle Plans" - but They would be laid in the smaller Shipways (which is its own finite resource). I think Sir John did an analysis on the Slipways/Construction/Build Plans in the process of developing the Reluctant Admiral Mod - but I believe his build queue is essentially the same game mechanic as stock. You can observe it - toggle it on/off/accelerate it, but not choose more of (x) ship than already exist somewhere in queue.

Great idea.

ORIGINAL: wdolson

This does bring up a mod idea. In a mod, someone could fill the Japanese ship production queue with a bunch of ships that were never built and part of the scenario instructions would be that the Japanese player would have to decide which ships to build, trying to build all would destroy their economy. This would allow the Japanese player to adjust ship building priorities to their wishes. So you could cancel the Yamatos and build more DDs, or more tankers.

Bill

This was the EXACT thinking that led me to create RA. The Japanese still build Yamato and Musashi; however, they then sink resources into 3 Shokaku-Class in Circle 4 instead of Shinano, #4, and Taiho.

When we were looking at the Perfect War Mod we decided to go with one of the 16" BB Classes that was drawn up instead of Yamato. Cost dropped about 40%/BB.

I build them but only after the Taiho and the six Unyrus are completed.

Interesting idea.

ORIGINAL: wdolson

This does bring up a mod idea. In a mod, someone could fill the Japanese ship production queue with a bunch of ships that were never built and part of the scenario instructions would be that the Japanese player would have to decide which ships to build, trying to build all would destroy their economy. This would allow the Japanese player to adjust ship building priorities to their wishes. So you could cancel the Yamatos and build more DDs, or more tankers.

Bill

I've thought about this. I actually really want to play a game with that option. Add in some more ships, even if it's just lots more DDs and SS hulls. Obviously you have to pay for them with the HI cost. It would add a lot more depth to the game. It would be so much more flexibility for the Japanese player that they should be willing to make a concession in return, however. Like many more PPs for the Allied player, perhaps.

I've played two full games as Japan and have built her both times. Used as Mike has said they can both last into '44 with good play.

Plus I have never understood saving up massive amounts of HI. HI should be used when it is the most effective not at the end when it is producing things that do not have the same impact. Another reason I build it [:)]

ORIGINAL: oreskovich

I had a similar experience against the Yamato. The Revenge blundered into the Yamato in the Indian Ocean in the middle of a thunderstorm. At 1000 yards the Revenge put an entire broadside into the Yamato and then pummeled the Yamato until she went down. I probably hit the Yamato 20 or 25 times with the Revenge's main armament before the Yamato sank. It was a lucky engagement for sure but all that Japanese HI expenditure got erased by an almost 30 year old BB.

This appears to suggest some sort of bug, which I am reluctant to support. At 1000 yards it's nearly impossible for BBs to eliminate each other. The magazines would be protected by the sea and if a BB was going to sink it would have to be the Repulse. If the range had opened to 5k yards the same would be true. Those 15" guns are capable of sinking a battleship of that class, but certainly not at anything less than that 10k yards.

Might need to start a new Thread to talk about the mod Ideas and how it could be done.

ORIGINAL: geofflambert

ORIGINAL: oreskovich

I had a similar experience against the Yamato. The Revenge blundered into the Yamato in the Indian Ocean in the middle of a thunderstorm. At 1000 yards the Revenge put an entire broadside into the Yamato and then pummeled the Yamato until she went down. I probably hit the Yamato 20 or 25 times with the Revenge's main armament before the Yamato sank. It was a lucky engagement for sure but all that Japanese HI expenditure got erased by an almost 30 year old BB.

This appears to suggest some sort of bug, which I am reluctant to support. At 1000 yards it's nearly impossible for BBs to eliminate each other. The magazines would be protected by the sea and if a BB was going to sink it would have to be the Repulse. If the range had opened to 5k yards the same would be true. Those 15" guns are capable of sinking a battleship of that class, but certainly not at anything less than that 10k yards.

warspite1

So it's HMS Revenge vs Yamato and you think HMS Repulse should be sunk [;)]