Matrix Games Forums

Feedback:

Seems to me that a lot of weapon numbers in DW:U are arbitrary, and unbalanced. Not your doing, I'm sure, though there are discrepancies in your tech / component files that make upgrade techs sometimes cause the base item to back-slide (e.g. Enhanced Concussion missiles are worse than concussion missiles; or topedo launchers that jump around in size or energy requirements from one upgrade or level to the next).

All of DW:U weapons seem similar to me - hodge podge of numbers. If I do even a rudimentary dps analysis, missiles are pathetic in the extreme, with numbers like 3.3dps, compared to say blasters at dps 8dps at a similar tech level.

Please don't take this as criticism of your mod - love it

I'm just trying to reflect what I'm finding, and I'm playing with a mod-mod of your mod (which will be for my enjoyment unless a lot of things change and you're copacetic with my doing something with a mod based on your mod).

So far, what I'm playing with:

Torpedoes:
Role: Big [size 15], high energy use [varies, but high], slow [speed starts around 80 climbs to 280], moving bomb with good range and good dps at range, but not as good as energy weapons)
Change: Increased damage moderately & speed moderately, so that they scale up as well as the energy weapons line does (baster-line). Normalized things like launcher sizes so that ship designs are more stable (same size for new torpedo types, vary mainly warhead / range, rather than size or rate-of-fire). [keeping the same RoF in a line of weapons massively helps the player figure out whether something is - and by how much - better than the thing it improves / replaces].

Missiles:
Role: Very long range, reasonably fast, seeking weapon with large punch. Drawbacks: slow rate of fire, and -50% vs. armor, can be shot down by PD.
Increased damage greatly & speed moderately and range to 1200 or so. DPS a bit better than blasters, but remember the -50% effectiveness && subject to PD!
Note: size 16, low-power (size limits players from spamming these things)

Rail guns:
Role: Rapid-fire, long-range, inaccurate, low-power, small damage but has the partly ignores shield bonus.
Dropped range to 1000, and balanced dps between the large and small versions so that the slow take 2x size and produces just slightly more than 2x dps
The small one's advantage is more shots = more odds to hit (less eggs in a single basket). But only slightly, so mostly to player's preferences.

Thanks for the feedback, mordachai.

Regarding the weapons values, note that most of the weapons values were taken from those developed by Icemania in his AI Improvement mod. See this link:

tm.asp?m=3647528

and also see the specific discussion of weapons balance here:

tm.asp?m=3650767

The values may seem random, but a lot of them were carefully chosen. It's very easy to change the values, but hard to balance the end result. For example, I'm aware that the changes I made to certain weapons values probably did nothing to help balance, and that my end games weapons are unlikely to be remotely balanced.

Incidentally, I looked at enhanced concussion missiles, but as far as I can see they are better than concussion missiles

Enhanced concussion vs concussion:
+1 damage
+130 range
-0.1 fire rate

Please could you provide further details if you still think this is wrong. More generally, I'd be interested in any specific example where the improvement is inferior in every respect (or most respects) to the previous version, because there is probably a mistake in the figures.

Having said all that, I do think weapons could use a complete overhaul, but I don't feel that I have the capacity to handle that, because if the whole tree is being redone, it definitely needs to be balanced and I do not have the time to balance a completely new weapons tree.

You are of course welcome to publish your own mod based on mine. Alternatively, if you prefer, I may be able to incorporate some of your changes into my mod, if I think they will enhance the mod. The only word of caution I would give here is that I'm not certain it's a good idea to have two closely related research mods. Far better to arrive at a single mod (which doesn't necessarily need to be mine), which is subsequently incorporated into other good mods, such as Haree 78's or Blackstork's.

Osito

I have zero interest in taking credit for anything... so if I can help you in some ways, then great, and it's your thing incorporated into Haree's / the Extended AI / etc., then I'm happy.

Agreed on the "two nearly the same." For those reasons, and my own fickle nature (I do what makes sense to me and I find time / motivation to do), I prefer not to worry much about publishing anything. So... I'm open to the possibility that something might be of use and some of my efforts can be incorporated somewhere to the community's benefit... but I won't be losing any sleep over that!

I worry that I am changing values without enough depth of understanding. Is there a reasons the missile dps is so low? They specifically are called out in various places in-game as a good early weapon but poor late game choice (or was that rail-guns)? Regardless - they definitely are -50% vs. armor. That's a HUGE hit. So they can take down the shields (when they hit - they're a good example of "all your eggs in one basket" - a miss is a lot of FP wasted) -- but they are much poorer at actually destroying a target (at least until armor is all gone).

Sorry if I misspoke about concussion - I meant specifically the research COMPONENT ENHANCEMENT lines, rather than the base components themselves. So I think (IIRC) that the concussion is better than seeker in all regards, but that the upgrade to seeker, or the upgrade to concuss, or both, or maybe further up the tree, have various backsliding issues (rate of fire suddenly getting better then worse, etc.) Sorry - I wrote that off of the top of my head - I didn't verify which things exactly had small glitches (again, mostly just being a bull in a china shop and making values - for now - that simply appeal to me, rather than really trying to just find & fix glitches w/o breaking / changing things whole cloth).

Thanks for the links. I'm very late to this DW party, and I suppose that has benefits (I'm enthused / new blood), and disads (I missed all of these conversations along the way). So any links to discussions of the weaposn / balance / etc., are all something I'd love to read (assuming they're focused - nobody wants to read entire forums of historic ramblings such as my own!)

EDIT: Oh, and as to your late-game techs - they're spozed to be somewhat off-the-rails - so unless they're underpowered, I'm not about to worry about them!

And my quick-dps analysis of weapons (using Icemania's mod: extended AI / yours), I still find this to be the king of current truth: tm.asp?m=3650767#

Addendum: I'm reading through Icemania's thread now - with his discussions on weapon balance. I think my intuition that I was being a bull in china shop were correct. I think this will be time for me to play with "what-if" and look at balance in more depth as I read through the existing discussion and look at the various spreadsheets that were made to analyze it all. Thanks again for your mod. I'd like to reconcile it with Extended AI one of these days (after I play some more with the numbers / rearrange a few things to my liking

one idea I have: make an alternate tech that gives basic fighter hangar + interceptor + (new, basic) missile bomber.

This looks like it would work with the game engine, and allows a player to do missiles + fighters, instead of having the torp requirement & starting with the wrong kind of bombers. I'll likely add this very soon, to see how it works in practice. The Mortalen, who are fighters mainly - I have made fighters + missiles, so this would be a good fit for them.

Here's a screenshot of the idea so far:


Note that I bailed on the two-base hangar bays because the game engine always picks the first one with a hangar tech in it, and gives that as complete at the start of a normal game (for Mortalen).

So this alternate approach means that the player is completely in control as to whether to get torpedo bombers, or missile bombers, and as a nice bonus: whether to get interceptors at all!

I also had to dump dependencies on torps / missiles because there's no good way to say "requires X + one of (Y or Z)" Since all other weapon systems have not such ancillary requirement (you just get them whole by researching just the torpedo or missile or whatever), I decided that this was no loss (I still made dependencies on the hangar bays, which is more than good enough IMO).

I am REALLY disappointed that you are not continuing with this mod. I do not like Mordecai's mod due to all of the extra chrome he included (races, UI mods, etc.) most of which are difficult to filter out. Your "pure" R&D mod is much more to my liking and I encourage you to pick it back up.

Hi Solops,

Thanks for the positive comments. The mod isn't so much 'dead' as 'resting', as I've been tied up with other stuff for a while.

I will fix bugs, and if people have ideas for improving the mod, I will consider them and possibly include them, provided the ideas relate to research/components/resources/facilities. Also, I will eventually take another look at the mod to see whether I can take it on to the next stage - for example overhauling the weapons research. It is likely to be a couple of months before I do anything significant, but I'll get there eventually.

Osito

I mentioned in my original post that pirates get hurt by the lower hyperdrive speeds in this mod. Following some discussion in Fierceking's Starfall mod thread, it occurred to me that there may be a way around this by separating each race into 'pirate only' or 'empire only'. In effect, you would duplicate the races files of those races that can be pirates, and in one of the duplicated files they would be set to 'pirates' and in the other they would be set to 'empire'. In this way you could make certain techs available to pirates only (or empires only), and thereby give back to pirates their early game hyperdrive advantage.

Questions:
1. Anyone know whether this will actually work (or see any flaws in it)?
2. If it will work, is it something that people would like to see implemented?
3. Any thoughts on what would be an appropriate starting hyperdrive speed for pirates?

Osito

I've just updated this mod to version 2.0, so I'm giving it a bump, in case anyone is interested ...

The DesignTemplates for the Pirate are not loaded properly:
Because they don't have a race folders

For example you should have a folder named
..\Customization\Research Unleashed - Version 2\designTemplates\phaerax Pirates\pirate
for the Phaerax pirates!

You can see it by checking the Fleewhen behaviour form the destroyer for example.

ORIGINAL: Francoy

The DesignTemplates for the Pirate are not loaded properly:
Because they don't have a race folders

For example you should have a folder named
..\Customization\Research Unleashed - Version 2\designTemplates\phaerax Pirates\pirate
for the Phaerax pirates!

You can see it by checking the Fleewhen behaviour form the destroyer for example.

Thanks, I overlooked that. Same problem with policies too, I think. At least it's a reasonably easy fix, which I will do right now.

Osito

ORIGINAL: Osito

I've just updated this mod to version 2.0, so I'm giving it a bump, in case anyone is interested ...

Thank you, Osito!!! I absolutely adore your research mod. I use it with Mordachai's bundle of moddy goodness. I hope he updates his bundle to include this soon.

I've tried many of the other mods out there, yet I keep coming back to this one because it is the closest to my style of play. Just uploaded 2.0 and giving it a spin with a new game.

Keep up the good work!

Thanks for the positive comments. Please do remember that if you think something might be better done another way, or doesn't work well, I am open to reconsidering. Feedback is always welcome. I also have more time than when I originally released this mod in February, so I do have the time to implement changes and also incorporate other mods, if there's a demand for it (and the original modder is happy with it).

Osito

So far loving this v2.01 Mod.

Couple of comments, possible issues.

-During Race selection. In the Special Technologies field it lists ALL the tech lines. Makes it hard to see any special techs, or lack thereof. Maybe just use a category definition. Race = Balanced, Race = Efficient, to indicate a package. Then listing the truly Special techs? So if I see balanced I know all basic lines are active, etc...

-Even though I have 'only show latest' component selected it shows all components.

-Is it intended that the Kaldos Drives are both Higher Speed and Faster Initiating than the Callista-Dal? Other than a minor energy cost reduction there seems little to recommend ever using them.

ORIGINAL: CyclopsSlayer

So far loving this v2.01 Mod.

Couple of comments, possible issues.

-During Race selection. In the Special Technologies field it lists ALL the tech lines. Makes it hard to see any special techs, or lack thereof. Maybe just use a category definition. Race = Balanced, Race = Efficient, to indicate a package. Then listing the truly Special techs? So if I see balanced I know all basic lines are active, etc...

-Even though I have 'only show latest' component selected it shows all components.

-Is it intended that the Kaldos Drives are both Higher Speed and Faster Initiating than the Callista-Dal? Other than a minor energy cost reduction there seems little to recommend ever using them.

It will be a few days before I can access my DW computer, but I will look at these issues as soon as I can.

Specifically:

- on the race selection point, I have seen that too. I'll see if there's anything that can be done about it.
- I wasn't aware of your point on the components. To be honest, I would even know how to get the game to change this in the first place, so if anyone else has any ideas, I'd be interested to hear about it. I will take a look at it, though.
- I tend to agree with your hyperdrive point. I need to revisit this and introduce a bigger distinction. Perhaps I'll make the Callista Dal slower but more efficient, so you can go for significantly higher range at the expense of speed.

Let me know how you're finding the pirates and whether you think they need a further speed buff (or even a debuff).

Osito

Pirates set on Distant, Weak, as I didn't feel like dealing with them.

Met three Pirate empires by Year 11. One was so weak as to be safely ignored. They other two, met later were a bit ridiculous. Demanded a huge protection and when I didn't pay, I couldn't as I was in negative cash flow atm, they sent a group of 8-10 destroyer class ships and soon all my outsystem mines were being destroyed/captured. They tried to board but by default I put Hab modules to 300 boarding defense so commonly failed but were still credited with a raid. Mines had 600 Shields and 320 boarding strength, and the third pirate captured every base they attacked.
By year 12 my Espionage had stolen 49% of Colonization Tech, all the first two Gravitic and Railgun upgrades. The first two Long Ranged Scanner techs and Component Prefabrication from the pirates. A couple other techs were partially developed, the ones listed i hit enough to steal the completed tech.

On a huge map when I stole the Operations map from the biggest Pirate, they were based 2/3 of the map away. So yes WAY TOO fast.

Re: Components Obsoleting
Look right above the listing of available components in the Design screen. There is a check box.

Has the mod changed the AI routine for explorer ships? I used to send non-automated explorer ships to explore a specific system and the ship would fly around the system until everything was revealed and then it would stop upon mission completion. Now it appears that they just fly to the system and stop without hitting all the planets/asteroids in the system. If I turn on automation, it seems to hit everything but then once it gets done with that system it moves on to the next system, which may not be the one I wanted it to go to next.

ORIGINAL: apd1004

Has the mod changed the AI routine for explorer ships? I used to send non-automated explorer ships to explore a specific system and the ship would fly around the system until everything was revealed and then it would stop upon mission completion. Now it appears that they just fly to the system and stop without hitting all the planets/asteroids in the system. If I turn on automation, it seems to hit everything but then once it gets done with that system it moves on to the next system, which may not be the one I wanted it to go to next.

I haven't knowingly changed anything to do with the explorers, and, if anything, I would expect any explorer routine to be dictated by the AI Improvement mod. Having said that, I'm not sure it's possible to change the AI in the way you mentioned. It might possibly have something to do with the low starting range of the explorer's resource profile sensor, but then again I wasn't aware of any such problem with version 1 of this mod, which had the same staring range. Don't know whether a recent patch has affected anything. I will see if I can replicate the issue next time I can play DW.

CyclopsSlayer, yes I know about the option to show only the most recent components; what I meant is that I wouldn't know how to mod the game in such a way as to make everything show up, rather than just the most recent stuff. So at the moment, I'm unsure what I might have changed to cause this behaviour.

It's interesting to hear your views on the pirates, because they are still starting off a lot slower than they do in vanilla, but I guess it takes the player much longer to catch up.

Osito

The AI Improvement Mod just changes how many Explorers are built. The Explorer algorithm itself is hard coded and not accessible.